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Thread: Illustrious 18

  1. #1


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    Illustrious 18

    It seems like there are so many slight variations of the Illustrious 18 where there are some tweaks to different plays here and there. I play mostly shoe games so this picture below shows the Illustrious 18 I memorized (I know it doesn't include negative counts). Is this the same as your variation plays or do you play certain hand slightly different?Screen Shot 2019-08-21 at 1.16.42 PM.png

  2. #2


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    The reason BJTF has been so frustrating is no one seems to want to learn any fundamentals anymore. Good for me, I guess, because most of these people will be gone in a few months.

    The Illustrious 18 was a concept created by Don Schlesinger as a way to capture most of the value of all index plays by focusing on the top 18 most valuable. A sort of Pareto principle for card counting, except it captures more than 80%. Don published the first explanation showing the value of each of the index plays. Starting at page 55 in BJA3 is required reading for everyone. (I add this here because I think it could be clearer: The 18 are the starting point and bare minimum a counter should learn. Don't stop learning.)

    So your question is... what, exactly? Are people doing what their count system tells them to do for a given hand and true count? What is the point of doing anything else? Also, do you understand that the published I18 information is for Hi-Low?

    (Don: apologies if I mischaracterized anything. It's obviously a complex subject.)
    Last edited by refinery; 08-21-2019 at 11:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by refinery View Post
    Pareto principle
    I just leanred a new term today. Thanks, refinery.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by refinery View Post
    The reason BJTF has been so frustrating is no one seems to want to learn any fundamentals anymore. Good for me, I guess, because most of these people will be gone in a few months.

    The Illustrious 18 was a concept created by Don Schlesinger as a way to capture most of the value of all index plays by focusing on the top 18 most valuable. A sort of Pareto principle for card counting, except it captures more than 80%. Don published the first explanation showing the value of each of the index plays. Starting at page 55 in BJA3 is required reading for everyone. (I add this here because I think it could be clearer: The 18 are the starting point and bare minimum a counter should learn. Don't stop learning.)

    So your question is... what, exactly? Are people doing what their count system tells them to do for a given hand and true count? What is the point of doing anything else? Also, do you understand that the published I18 information is for Hi-Low?

    (Don: apologies if I mischaracterized anything. It's obviously a complex subject.)
    Yes, I know. I regularly practice on Casino Verite with Hi-lo I18. I'm asking because depending on where I look, the I18 has slight variations. Just one example, some charts I read say double 9 against 7 at a +3 while others say double 9 against 7 at a +4. There's slight changes to different plays depending where I look, which is why I'm asking if people have plays at TCs that are different from the chart I learned from.

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by TAGR View Post
    Yes, I know. I regularly practice on Casino Verite with Hi-lo I18. I'm asking because depending on where I look, the I18 has slight variations. Just one example, some charts I read say double 9 against 7 at a +3 while others say double 9 against 7 at a +4. There's slight changes to different plays depending where I look, which is why I'm asking if people have plays at TCs that are different from the chart I learned from.
    The I18 doesn't apply to my system, but double check the game conditions. The original author of the chart probably created a version for DAS, S17, H17 etc.,
    I noticed Refinery quoted Don Schlesinger created it. That alone should give you the answers. Find out where he published this and whatever he say's should trump any charts you see floating around on various sites. Critical thinking, bud.
    Last edited by UncleChoo; 08-21-2019 at 12:15 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleChoo View Post
    The I18 doesn't apply to my system
    Do you mean that IL18 would not be effective for your system.
    Or your don't use IL18 ?

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by TAGR View Post
    Yes, I know. I regularly practice on Casino Verite with Hi-lo I18. I'm asking because depending on where I look, the I18 has slight variations. Just one example, some charts I read say double 9 against 7 at a +3 while others say double 9 against 7 at a +4. There's slight changes to different plays depending where I look, which is why I'm asking if people have plays at TCs that are different from the chart I learned from.
    You're missing the point. There is no I18 "chart". There is the concept as provided by Don in BJA3. It has some supporting charts. The concept is what is important. You always do what your count system says to do. (Also, stop using materials of unknown origin. You learned from a chart and you actually don't know where it came from or what it represents!)

    Here is an excercise for you: I use FELT for my count system. Do I use the I18? If yes, was I provided a chart? If I wasn't provided a chart, how would I use the I18?

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe View Post
    Do you mean that IL18 would not be effective for your system.
    Or your don't use IL18 ?
    Sorry, poor wording. Could definitely apply, I'd just need to adjust the index numbers to apply to zen. Unfortunately, I was unfamiliar with Mr. Schlesinger when first studying. I went the crazy rout and spent a year on flashcards learning all the deviations. Then one day I realized hitting 16 vs 6 at -25 was a waste of time to learn. If I find myself playing shoes at -25 I have bigger problems than remembering indice plays ha ha

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    I just leanred a new term today. Thanks, refinery.
    No problem. I'm sure you already knew the 80/20 rule. Now you have a fancy pants way of talking about it.

  10. #10


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    K
    Quote Originally Posted by refinery View Post
    The reason BJTF has been so frustrating is no one seems to want to learn any fundamentals anymore. Good for me, I guess, because most of these people will be gone in a few months.

    The Illustrious 18 was a concept created by Don Schlesinger as a way to capture most of the value of all index plays by focusing on the top 18 most valuable. A sort of Pareto principle for card counting, except it captures more than 80%. Don published the first explanation showing the value of each of the index plays. Starting at page 55 in BJA3 is required reading for everyone. (I add this here because I think it could be clearer: The 18 are the starting point and bare minimum a counter should learn. Don't stop learning.)

    So your question is... what, exactly? Are people doing what their count system tells them to do for a given hand and true count? What is the point of doing anything else? Also, do you understand that the published I18 information is for Hi-Low?

    (Don: apologies if I mischaracterized anything. It's obviously a complex subject.)
    Agree in principle. What needs to be understood by all s that the I18 is quoting strike points. Shoestring bankroll players should consider risk averse for many of their index plays.

    The slash and burn player will play the strike point in their pursuit of EV maximization. The longevity player will likely play a mix of EV maximizing and risk averse. That is my practice, though my risk averse play has nothing to do with aversion to risk.

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    though my risk averse play has nothing to do with aversion to risk.
    Which begs the question, "Why do you use risk averse indices?"

  12. #12


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    The most accurate, floored, indices for the I18 for Hi-Lo appear on page 213 of BJA3, covering different numbers of decks and both S17 and H17 values. The "Catch 22" indices appear on page 375 and include seven risk-averse indices for these values. Again, these are the ones I'd use for Hi-Lo.

    As soon as you use a different count system, you need to generate your own custom indices. But the 18 or 22 actual plays themselves should vary little or not at all from one system to another.

    Don

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by 21frogman View Post
    Which begs the question, "Why do you use risk averse indices?"
    Certain hand combinations are so common, example 8v6. The index for doubling is +1. The combination is so common that a mix of many doubles versus non doubles just makes it to easy to be picked off. I usually (not always) wait until +3 to make The play. The loss of not doubling at +1 is minuscule, and the far less common +3 can be incorporated into a persona, and captures a much higher % of the Expected Value.

    Now, I almost ( no such thing as always) always follow index 10v9, 11v10 etc etc. Trust that clarifies.

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