Effective 8/1/2018 Card Counters Can't be Kicked Out of Louisiana Casinos

[Dbs6582]

It amazes me why anyone assumes they know far more about a business they have never run and have never seen the bottom line than the financial analysts with graduate degrees and years of experience.

My wife is somewhat like that, visit a museum and thinks she knows how that could be improved, eats a gourmet meal and assume she knows what to add to make It more fast (assumes they will get more business if they add salt, lol), goes to a grocery store and feels she could re-arrange the shelves and decor (does not understand the research that goes behind their decisions).

This topic is similar. At the same time that one pro says their is thinking behind the decisions a casino makes, another says casino operators are dumb.

Norm ought to close this thread.

I thought this post was one of the better ones I’ve read in while, with the exception of the last sentence. Why ask Norm to close a thread? If you don’t like it, just don’t open and read it. There might be other people interested in the topic. Why do you want it closed for everyone?

With this said, your first comment was dead on: “It amazes me why anyone assumes they know far more about a business they have never run and seen the bottom than the financial analysts with graduate degrees and years of experience.”

When talking about casinos, many APs (not all) reminds me of a bunch of old ladies gossiping about something they know little about but think they have the solutions to every problem.

There’s a lot that goes into casino’s decisions, much more than most on this site understands. Any new game or rule change goes through a lot of steps before this game is expanded onto the casino floor. This is no different than how any new product comes into the market by any big corporation. It first goes through marketing studies and test alpha sites to make sure the product will be accepted by the market. Trust me (I know APs love it when I use this word), these decisions are not made willie nilly.

I have never worked in a casino but I do work for a large corporation and am involved in bringing new products to the market place. Every person on this site uses products I’ve had a major role in designing. I don’t think most lay people understand everything that goes into these decisions. I can assure you a lot went into bringing 6:5 bj into caisnos. If it wasn’t successful and didn’t improve casino’s bottom line, this game would have been pulled a long time ago.

[BoSox]

I have never worked in a casino but I do work for a large corporation and am involved in bringing new products to the market place. Every person on this site uses products I’ve had a major role in designing.

Depends?

[BoSox]

My wife is somewhat like that, visit a museum and thinks she knows how that could be improved, eats a gourmet meal and assume she knows what to add to make It more fast (assumes they will get more business if they add salt, lol), goes to a grocery store and feels she could re-arrange the shelves and decor (does not understand the research that goes behind their decisions).

Did she watch you play one day and say dimwit you do not stand with a pair of Sevens vs an eight-up, hit that moron?

[Dbs6582]

Depends?

Not bad Bosox. Made me laugh. Glad you still feel okay responding to one of my posts. Freightman is trying to get everyone to boycott me. Looks like everyone hasn’t got the memo, or Freighman doesn’t have the power he thought he had.

I do feel bad I’ve upset Freightman to where he doesn’t even want to assault me with his barrage of insults. I kind of miss those.

[BoSox]

Not bad Bosox. Made me laugh. Glad you still feel okay responding to one of my posts. Freightman is trying to get everyone to boycott me. Looks like everyone hasn’t got the memo, or Freighman doesn’t have the power he thought he had.

I do feel bad I’ve upset Freightman to where he doesn’t even want to assault me with his barrage of insults. I kind of miss those.

You spoke that we should also have a common song, well every time I read one of your post I think of this song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8DRen60X10

[Dbs6582]

You spoke that we should also have a common song, well every time I read one of your post I think of this song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8DRen60X10

Thanks Bosox. I laughed but wondered if you really meant it. I’m sure some on this site like to be challenged by someone who is an individual thinking. What I’ve found from this site and other AP sites is that most APs (not all) have a serious anti-business bias, and it extends beyond just disliking or hating casinos.

If you don’t like different views, or a more pro-business slant to various topics than I’d suggest putting me on ignore. Several APs have already done this because they can’t handle views that are different than theirs.

[SammyBoy]

I have solid respect for 21forme, but there is one issue that we disagree on.

Of course, 2 peeps playing full-time for 6 months will have results that are

partially the result of good variance. The greater the sample size the less it

is a matter of variance. They played for a few months and won almost nothing

before learning to use Hi-Opt II and winning $100,000 in four months. I did not

note how many hours were involved, but playing high stakes, $100,000 I am sure

is well within 1 standard deviation playing daily while "crisscrossing the country."

There is no final answer as to how much "luck" (good variance) was involved.

My respect for 21forme cannot be sullied by one disagreement. He is a very bright fellow.

I urge all readers to read something artfully written at:

http://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/how-...-ways-to-argue

Thank me later.

I agree with 21forme, this is so small of a sample size it's meaningless.

[Sharky]

I doubt if many people on this site thought about how stupid I’ve discussed this topic the way I have.

nope, i think we are all clear you are a moron

[Dbs6582]

nope, i think we are all clear you are a moron

HI sharky, I see you're back. I thought you had me on ignore. Did you read ZMF’s article on how to argue on the internet? There are 7 ways, with the lowest form being name calling. It looks like you and Freighman know how to argue at the lowest level. Have you ever thought about moving up the arguing ladder? Possibly to where you can make a coherent point?

[BoSox]

If these fellows had continued playing without the benefit of my mentorship,
their high I.Q., and Hi-Opt II/ASC, they probably would have quit playing long
ago.

A few months ago I met with these two young men who have a noble goal.
They had both graduated from College and had been accepted to a good
Eastern Medical School. They begin in Sept. and they needed to find a great
deal of money to pay off their undergraduate Student Loans.

They had an
initial bankroll that was barely sufficient for $25 games. As profits accrued, they
doubled their bet spread to $50-$600.

Of course, 2 peeps playing full-time for 6 months will have results that are

partially the result of good variance. The greater the sample size the less it

is a matter of variance. They played for a few months and won almost nothing

before learning to use Hi-Opt II and winning $100,000 in four months. I did not

note how many hours were involved, but playing high stakes, $100,000 I am sure

is well within 1 standard deviation playing daily while "crisscrossing the country."

Something does not sound right. On one hand you have these two college grads who needed a great deal of money to pay off their undergraduate student loans. They begin Medical School in Sept, with a goal of winning $150k which you tell them is doable. Suddenly after four months, they are up $100k while crisscrossing the country. They must have won that money in a far shorter period of time because you said the following:

They played for a few months and won almost nothing

before learning to use Hi-Opt II and winning $100,000 in four months.

Did they take a year off from school, as there seems to be a lot of extra time on their hands? Or could they have been playing the Hi-Low count while also taking classes? Or, did they possibly get caught in a tornado somewhere in the Midwest and end up like Dorthy and go to Emerald City to meet the wizard ZMF?

[Dbs6582]

No, what you're saying sunk in right away. Blackjack started off as single deck and that is what the player of the time was used to. Slowly but surely the casinos added more decks to make more money, much like deeper cut card is more money.

Its a slow Saturday evening so I thought I’d try to help you with this. You are wrong on so many levels with this paragraph, I don’t know where to start. I’ll start by saying you are wrong about why casinos added more decks. It was not to make more money. It was to combat card counters. This has nothing to do with the supply/demand argument or pen. It’s a side point I thought you needed to know.

As as far as the point I was trying to make comparing dealing a single deck all the way to the last card or a DD at 50% pen, I can see you missed it. My point is in both cases the same number of cards are delt. If you assume it takes the same amount of time to shuffle single and DD (or the casino is using an automatic shuffling machines) then the casino is dealing the same number of hands per hour for these two cases so the supply is the same. But there are many APs that will think the casino will make more money with the hypothetical single deck game since the pen is better. In this case, it doesn’t even matter what the supply vs demand curve is since the supply is the same for the two cases.

Also note that even if you believe demand correlated to supply, casinos still don’t need to have deep pen to increase supply. Faster dealers, more open tables and more decks will all lead to more supply and hands per hour. None of these involve deeper pen.

Btw, have you ever wondered why there are so many DD deck games compared to six or eight deck shoe games? In terms of hands delt per hour, shoe games are better than DD for the casino. Because casinos also have to satisfy their customer base. They are compromising hands per hour for customer retention. If all they cared about is hands per hour, they would only have eight deck shoe games with automatic shuffle machines.

My point is there is a lot more to casinos generating more profits than by just trying to generate more hands per hour. This is why pen doesn’t play much of a role in a casino’s profits, at least not near the role some APs think.

I know I’m beating a dead horse but I think there are some people interested in this. The more I have got counter arguments (which were poorly thought out), the more convinced I am that the AP community has way over estimated the value of pen to a casinos profits. Once again, I think the casinos have got it right for the most part. And no I don’t work or consult for casinos. I’m a part time recreational player who finds this stuff interesting from an academic and business standpoint.

[Sharky]

… The more I have got counter arguments (which were poorly thought out), ..

I get where you’re going with this. Of course a faster dealer or deeper pen will generate more potential profit for your isolated case. So what? What does that prove? ...

you asked "where/how is this made up demand when the cut card is placed further back" and I supplied a very simple, common example, TO WHICH YOU, OBVIOUSLY AGREED.

Isolated you say!?....there are fucking MILLIONS of examples:

• guy playing through lunch break
• guy cuts out of work early to play, but still has to leave a x time to be home for kid's bus
• guy arrives 30 mins early for dinner...so plays for that 30 mins
• obviously, i could go on and on....like you and 3, but it is not necessary

it is, literally, as though you have no common sense.

AGAIN, wrong on so many levels….BJ hands are NOT WIGETS!!!!.....if you make more toaster ovens – increase supply – IT DOES NOTING TO DEMAND….BJ is different in that if you take EVERY EXAMPLE ABOVE, BY PUTTING THE CUT CARD FURTHER BACK = INCREASED DEMAND =>( theoretical INCREASE IN PROFTS FOR THE CASINO BY CUTTING FURTHER BACK…..NOT “isolated case”, rather MILLIONS of examples!!!!!!!!!!!

IN ALL THE EXAMPLES, BJ PLAYER WILL CONSUME ALL THE EXTRA DEMAND OFFERED!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT TOASTER OVENS!!!

It’s is as though you have zero economic or business sense.


PLEASE DON’T COMMENT ON THE ABOVE – I’ve heard all your senseless arguments ad nauseam
WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IS:

• Are you bipolar?
• Institutionalized? How long?
• Medicated? What?
• Self-medicated? What?
• Incarcerated? How long?
• Highest level of school completed
• Age?
• Height?
• Weight?
• Smoke cigarettes?
• THC? Daily?
• Drink? Daily?

THANKS! – wish you all the best.

[Dbs6582]

AGAIN, wrong on so many levels….BJ hands are NOT WIGETS!!!!.....if you make more toaster ovens – increase supply – IT DOES NOTING TO DEMAND….BJ is different in that if you take EVERY EXAMPLE ABOVE, BY PUTTING THE CUT CARD FURTHER BACK = INCREASED DEMAND =>( theoretical INCREASE IN PROFTS FOR THE CASINO BY CUTTING FURTHER BACK…..NOT “isolated case”, rather MILLIONS of examples!!!!!!!!!!!

IN ALL THE EXAMPLES, BJ PLAYER WILL CONSUME ALL THE EXTRA DEMAND OFFERED!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT TOASTER OVENS!!!

It’s is as though you have zero economic or business sense.


PLEASE DON’T COMMENT ON THE ABOVE – I’ve heard all your senseless arguments ad nauseam
WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IS:

• Are you bipolar?
• Institutionalized? How long?
• Medicated? What?
• Self-medicated? What?
• Incarcerated? How long?
• Highest level of school completed
• Age?
• Height?
• Weight?
• Smoke cigarettes?
• THC? Daily?
• Drink? Daily?

THANKS! – wish you all the best.

Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong again. You tired but you still aren’t getting it. It’s probaly because you’ve been brain washed by AP propaganda.

Dealers standing in front idle tables is also lost bj hands. Why? Because no one is there to play potential hands the dealers aren't dealing. Time spent not dealing bj hands is money lost. Moving the cut card further back just gives the dealers more idle time to stand in front of an empty table. I’ve see it a lot...dealers busting everyone out and then just standing there looking into space. I’m sure other people have seen this too. The amount of bj hands a dealer deals is limited by how many bj hands their customers are willing to play. Even when I’ve been at Foxwoods, I’ve seen dealers standing in front of empty tables. This means there is already too much supply of bj hands.

You're also missing the point Grosjeans and Zender have made. When casinos take their customers money too quickly, they can actually reduce revenue in the long run due to poor customer retention. Take the example you gave me earlier about the ploppy losing more money is a shorter period of time due to the cut card being further back. Because this happened, he might not play bj again given the same circumstances. So short term, yes the casino made more. But longer term they might hurt their revenues because they took his money too quick. This is one reason Grosjeans doesn’t like the 6:5 game. It takes ploppies money too quickly, which will ultimately lead to poorer customer retention. Why doesn’t this same logic hold for the cut card or having faster dealers?

What you seem to be missing is putting the cut card further back does NOT increase demand. All it does is supply more hands per hour for that table. The demand is dicated by how much the gambler is willing to lose or how long he wants to play. Once he’s at his loss limit (or in the case of the degenerate gambler, bankrupt), he leaves. Moving the cut card further back did not make him loss more, it just caused him to get to his loss limit quicker, so the dealer could have more time standing idly by in front of an empty table.

If I’m wrong and you and all the APs with this belief system are right, then why don’t the casinos know this? APs have been writing about this since Ken Uston’s days. It’s one of their core beliefs. It’s in almost every bj book and talked about ad nasuem on forums. You’d think all the casinos throughout the world would know about this by now. They would know all they need to do is move the cut card a little further back and presto, they could make millions and billions more. The cut card has this magical impact on making people want to lose more. It’s more powerful than having more tables open, or worse rules, or 6:5, or faster dealers, etc. All they need to do is move the cut card back and sit back and watch the money roll in. When are the casinos going to learn?

Have you ever considered maybe the casinos know what they are doing and they are right and this belief (which can not be proven with any math) by APs might be wrong?