What can I do to better my AP?

**ohboyohboyohboy** · 04-01-2017, 06:25 PM

I started learning and playing Blackjack a few months ago. Started off getting down basic strategy, followed up by learning the Hi-Lo system, and now I've got a few indexes memorized.

In the process, I've run down about 3 grand playing at various green and red chip tables. I'd estimate about 100 hours or so played total.

From what I've read online, it seems like it's not uncommon for this to happen (going into a $10 table with $2000 still results in a RoR of ~40%?) and perhaps I haven't gotten over the variance.

For what it's worth, the local tables around me are: $10 - 6D, 5/6 Pen, S17, double down on any, split to four hands (include aces), one card after splitting aces. $25 - same rules, but double deck and no wong-ins (actually found to be dealer dependent). ZeeBaBar, I think we might've played with each other at some point btw.

What would you recommend that I learn to improve my odds of winning at these tables? Is it worth learning a more complex system to increase PE and betting accuracy? Perhaps only on the 2 deck? Should I mainly play $25 tables as it seems to offer a better edge with the downside of greater swings, or stick to backcounting and wonging in at red chip tables?

**Meistro123** · 04-02-2017, 05:31 AM

Learn at least 20 indexes and ensure that you are accurately employing hi lo.

**ZeeBabar** · 04-02-2017, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by ohboyohboyohboy

I started learning and playing Blackjack a few months ago. Started off getting down basic strategy, followed up by learning the Hi-Lo system, and now I've got a few indexes memorized.

In the process, I've run down about 3 grand playing at various green and red chip tables. I'd estimate about 100 hours or so played total.

From what I've read online, it seems like it's not uncommon for this to happen (going into a $10 table with $2000 still results in a RoR of ~40%?) and perhaps I haven't gotten over the variance.

For what it's worth, the local tables around me are: $10 - 6D, 5/6 Pen, S17, double down on any, split to four hands (include aces), one card after splitting aces. $25 - same rules, but double deck and no wong-ins (actually found to be dealer dependent). ZeeBaBar, I think we might've played with each other at some point btw.

What would you recommend that I learn to improve my odds of winning at these tables? Is it worth learning a more complex system to increase PE and betting accuracy? Perhaps only on the 2 deck? Should I mainly play $25 tables as it seems to offer a better edge with the downside of greater swings, or stick to backcounting and wonging in at red chip tables?

I play HiLo, I-18 plus a few more indexes. We could not have played together because there is no place I play that offers Surrender.

I play about 85% DD. However, I only started winning just a bit after becoming more selective. I leave a DD game if there are any more than 3 spots being played if the pen is greater than 65%. If pen is less than 65%, I leave if more than 2 spots are being played in a DD game. In the 6D game, I wong out at TC-2,

For me, the challenge has been to be selective. Often, because I had driven a distance, I would try and play even if there were a lot of players on the table. Now, I don't. If you don't have. BR in excess of $10k, I would not play the $25 min. Games and if I did, I would use bathroom and cell phone breaks often. The minute the TC falls below TC -2, you got to take a call. Since there is no MDSE in DD, essentially, you are winging out at TC-2. My BR is about $37.5k and so I don't wong out often in DD games.

**Freightman** · 04-02-2017, 08:11 AM

Oh boy , Oh boy , Oh boy , Oh boy
First, and most importantly, I regale you with the following link.

https://youtu.be/SeqJWZgZ428

Oh, and before answering your inquiry, what's your bankroll, and I didn't see surrender.

RS · 04-02-2017, 08:45 AM

If you haven't done so already, purchase CVCX and CVBJ. IMO, CVCX is most important. Sim the different games you may be playing and it'll tell you your EV, ROR, variance, etc. This is what you need in order to determine what game is best for you. Play around with it. See what a $25 to $200 spread on the DD looks like (EV, N0, ROR, variance, etc.), as well as whatever spread you may employ on the 6D. Then do it again for a $25 to $300 or $25 to $150 spreads on DD, and then pure wonging on the shoe. Try it with 1 hand, or 2 hands, heads up vs full table (is one or the other busier typically?). Just running sims on the 2 games with many different variables will teach you a lot about the game and how different changes effect different stats (EV, N0, ROR, etc.).

The count system you use has very little impact, assuming it's something like HiLo, KO, etc. or better. (IE: Don't use the Ace-5 count.) Use whichever count you are most comfortable with and can employ the best and accurately.

Get CVBJ and practice playing. You don't know how many mistakes you're making until you get it and practice with it.

**ohboyohboyohboy** · 04-02-2017, 10:59 AM

Thanks for the responses guys.

No surrender at the tables I'm at.

And it sounds like I'll have to pony up to buy the Verite suite. I'm actually curious to see how badly I'm playing lol.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 04-02-2017, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by moses

"Master Wong Halves. Sweet 16"

Better, (by a bit), and (far) easier ~ Hi-Opt II

Learn more and more and more and more indices.

**Norm** · 04-02-2017, 04:55 PM

Please ignore people telling you what count to use. What you need is to practice until you completely master a count. And stop wasting your money in a casino before you have done so.

**ohboyohboyohboy** · 04-02-2017, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Norm

Please ignore people telling you what count to use. What you need is to practice until you completely master a count. And stop wasting your money in a casino before you have done so.

I'm very confident in my hi-lo proficiency. The only improvement that I can see being made is in mastering deviations and possibly learning a higher level count solely for increased playing proficiency, which I'm hesitant about because of possible errors being made while transitioning (thus advantages foregone) and expending effort for the sake of gaining pennies.

I think employing an ace sidecount (possibly 7 as well for PE) with hi-lo and mastering deviations should suffice with double deck.

Zen count with an ace/7 side count was also another I was considering.

**ZeeBabar** · 04-02-2017, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by moses

Hmmm. One thing that might be prudent is to not take advice from someone who admits they are an addict, has no work ethic, and doesn't care about advancing his game because he plays for fun.

You'd be better off taking advice about how to stop drinking from a drunk that loves to party.

Oh Moses, please. Where did I give anyone advice? I just shared my struggles, never mentioned any advice. That is for you guys to give. And typically, except for Norm, everyone else suggests a different count to learn. On the other forum, they laugh at advice about changing counts or the exaggeration of how much superior other counts are. The graphs show the superiority of higher level counts at the edges, either significantly, negative or significantly positive counts that we don't encounter that often.

**Norm** · 04-02-2017, 06:35 PM

Z and M, would you please stop responding to every post when you have nothing to add? People are really getting sick of it.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 04-02-2017, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by ohboyohboyohboy

"expending effort for the sake of gaining pennies."

As a recreational player, your egregious statement can be forgiven.

Comparing Hi-Lo to Hi-Opt II [depending upon (all) table conditions]

the improvement in [earnings] c-Score will be between 10% and 20%