T3

[BoSox]

I don't like the Hi-lo Count as well because it doesn't count the 7s but I won't discredit Hi-lo and say it is a weak count (it is not). I have been using my own version of the TKO with both true count for betting and indices. But these couple of days I decided to experiment and use a level 3 count system to see what difference it makes. I found that with a level 3 count I was able to bet more successfully in a six deck game and the win rate has increased. Now I am looking to see how well it performs in terms of playing efficiency and insurance in a double deck game. Level 1 count are still good count systems but it is not as effective compare to higher level count systems.

seriousplayer, I am very glad the experiments you are trying are working out well for you, and hope it continues. Everyone's game is somewhat different, even if they use the same system. I encourage anyone who plays the game to try and improve their skills. Now the game for me is a very serious hobby, whose days of continued play are numbered, because I find the game boring. For my style I like ease of use and the nonchalance appearance I might use at one place, and a completely different facade at another. Sure my system lacks in areas, but my inner game does not.

[seriousplayer]

seriousplayer, I am very glad the experiments you are trying are working out well for you, and hope it continues. Everyone's game is somewhat different, even if they use the same system. I encourage anyone who plays the game to try and improve their skills. Now the game for me is a very serious hobby, whose days of continued play are numbered, because I find the game boring. For my style I like ease of use and the nonchalance appearance I might use at one place, and a completely different facade at another. Sure my system lacks in areas, but my inner game does not.

I hope you succeed in your endeavor. I encourage you to keep finding improvements to your game whether it is in your inner game or your system. But one thing that bothers me with Flash is that he thinks that there is something wrong with every card counting system beside the Hi-OPT II count. You could be using a reputable level 2 or level 3 system and he still thinks that it lacks the strength and power to perform. It seems to me that he doesn't only dislike the Hi-lo count.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

" ... something wrong with every card counting system beside Hi-OPT II count."

You are presenting something that I have neither said nor implied.

While Hi-Opt II is the very best practical card count, there are others

[that Side-Count Aces] and are very strong, e.g. A.O. II

[Exoter175]

Guys, would it be too much of me to suggest that you guys are "reaching over dollars to pickup pennies" with this argument?

There's more to life than the count you use, and ultimately there's half a dozen things that will affect your bottom line more.

[seriousplayer]

You are presenting something that I have neither said nor implied.

While Hi-Opt II is the very best practical card count, there are others

[that Side-Count Aces] and are very strong, e.g. A.O. II

"While Hi-OPT II is the very best practical card count"
This is still questionable but I am not going to argue about this. From some of your other posts it does seem that you are implying that there are something wrong with every card counting system beside Hi-OPT II count. This the first post that I heard you actually said this.

[seriousplayer]

Guys, would it be too much of me to suggest that you guys are "reaching over dollars to pickup pennies" with this argument?

There's more to life than the count you use, and ultimately there's half a dozen things that will affect your bottom line more.

I am not trying to argue anything I was just bringing up what it occurs to me when I am reading Flash's post most of them are implied about using a more complex strategy and it just brothers me that I need to settle for just one strategy and the others are crap. That is what it occurs to me. I am not here to start an argument just want to improve my game and get a higher edge.

[ZeeBabar]

I am not trying to argue anything I was just bring up what it occurs to me when I am reading Flash's post most of them are implied about using a more complex strategy and it just brothers me that I need to settle for just one strategy and the others are crap. That is what it occurs to me. I am not here to start an argument just want to improve my game and get a higher edge.

its really funny. There are so many times where some here, proponents of higher level counts, almost convinced me to work on another count, especially after a losing streak. However, when I mentioned that I might consider another count on the other forum, folks there were adamant that Hi-Lo was just fine, that some were full time pros using a level one count and to concentrate on game selection, index, optimal betting and other strategies, that my losing streak had nothing to do with the count I was using.

Fact is that there are some good pros on this site that use a higher level count but there assumption that their success is due to their count is dubious. It's probably due to their experience, their more advanced money management techniques, their game selection, the casinos they play in and more.

its not like they (Flash, T3 etc) play alternate sessions at the same table using HiLo for one session, HIOPT11 for the next with the same dealer, pen etc, keep records and on and on and thus have a logical argument that a higher level count will make a significant difference to make it worthwhile for you to drop your current count, index, spread techniques and learn to master a higher level count.

[BoSox]

Moses, undoubtedly, a very strong case can be made that you hold the distinction of playing with the highest positive SCORE percentage than anyone else on the board. On the same token you could very well be the second lowest earner on the board only ahead of ZeeBabar. Sorry guys for my poor humor.

[BoSox]

Sorry, Moses, just messing with you.

[Exoter175]

I am not trying to argue anything I was just bringing up what it occurs to me when I am reading Flash's post most of them are implied about using a more complex strategy and it just brothers me that I need to settle for just one strategy and the others are crap. That is what it occurs to me. I am not here to start an argument just want to improve my game and get a higher edge.

I get it SP, I do. I play a modified version of Hi-Lo with an ace sidetrack. I don't make the most on this board, and I'm not the most well versed with the absolutely FINE line of the mathematics. Its not to say that I'm some hillbilly with no penchant for mathematics, I'm a very intelligent individual myself, I just look at a much bigger picture. Over the course of 1 year, I'll make more fiddling with "big picture" practices than anyone else will by changing their counts and indices from 1 to another. T3 knows this, and Moses has a pretty good idea of it too as he's read a lot of my posts. Most everyone here knows I'm a big proponent of finding the count that suits the individual, and then moving on to much bigger ticket items.

There's a natural progression in this business, and suffice to say, not all counters are created equal, and not all of them grow at the same rate, or to the same size. Not long ago SP, I was a greenhorn in the APBJ world, learning Hi-Lo and running through the motions. I've learned and adapted very fast, as is required of me for what I do overall, and I've found a count that embodies the efficiencies that I demand from my time, and more importantly, HOW I play. I'm not saying there isn't a count more efficient than the one I'm using, but I will say with certainty, there isn't a count out there that I'm more comfortable with, and more accurate with right now, to keep up my level of efficiency for when I play.

It does seem, to me, like everyone likens their favorite counts to their favorite football teams, and in this case, all of these football teams are in the same division and therefore all other counts are bitter rivals, nemeses if you will. That's just not how APBJ works, though. To truly master ones self as an AP, one must be able to look at the much bigger picture and understand that there is no single "best" count because our aptitudes are not all one-size-fits-all. While mathematically there is one "superior" count, as there always will be, it is rendered useless if the AP cannot master it. I feel like that alone, deserves more attention and more respect than some argument about which count is better, and everyone's opinions of them.

I'm inclined to agree Ex. There is a reason Flash has such a passion for his defense. It's money. But you don't have fill your mind with "play all" indices to get the bulk of it. A stronger count provides more profit to the Sweet 16 indices and a handful of others. I learned this little secret from running matchup Sims in my 4 column count. Therefore, in other words, ive seen the major part of what he believes in dollars and "sense."

You obviously know what you are doing considering you are kicking ass and taking numbers throughout the bulk of two times zones. I'm far more inclined to believe and applaud as opposed to question you.

However, in a pitch game you need advantages far more than thresholds. This comes from your card point values, sweet 16, and SCORE. Otherwise, it's like taking a pair of nail clippers to a knife fight.

This is a prime example of the other end of the spectrum I started with SP. What we play, and how we play, makes a bigger difference than the count we use. What works for me, will not work for Moses here. What works for him, will not work for me. While we all know there is a right and wrong answer to the "which is better" question on paper, I think it serves a bigger purpose to understand the "WHY" one is better, rather than the answer itself, because it allows for us to then look at the unique situations we are put into and gauge the inaccuracies of one count vs. the other at any given place in time.

An example, I don't think Moses here can play the same game I play on a whim, and I certainly, absolutely could not play his. We both, however, feel our counts are the best possible matches for our game, and with that comes comfort and confidence, and both are more important than the mathematical differences between the two counts.

Moses, undoubtedly, a very strong case can be made that you hold the distinction of playing with the highest positive SCORE percentage than anyone else on the board. On the same token you could very well be the second lowest earner on the board only ahead of ZeeBabar. Sorry guys for my poor humor.

Your humor makes a solid point, however, and helps blend these two comments I've quoted together.

[Bubbles]

The EOR for 8 and 9 benefit the player, obviously not as much as 10 and A, but they're still in our favour.

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[Bubbles]

Hiopt2 ignores 8 and 9. If half of my negative cards and half of my positive ones were gone, the count would be near or at 0 and I'd have a minimum bet out, not max.

I insure when I reach my index unless I know the dealer doesn't have blackjack. My count's IC isn't perfect, but it's good enough for me.

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[Bubbles]

I'd probably have a decent size bet out then. It may be higher than my actual advantage because 8 and 9 aren't as beneficial, but that and variance are why we need decent bankrolls.

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