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Thread: 21forme: Question for Katarina (BS v Index play)

  1. #1
    21forme
    Guest

    21forme: Question for Katarina (BS v Index play)

    Katarina,
    Looking at BS for S17 8D game, 17 v A is Surrender.
    The index is -3 and is listed as H/S.
    Does that mean Surrender is for a BS player only and if counting, it's either Hit or Stand only?

    Also, I'd like to keep the 8D S17 strategy relatively simple, at least for starters. I plan on using the I18 + 3 Surrender indices. How important are the composition-dependent plays to EV? Is it reasonable to ignore the 4, 5, and 6 card deviations?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Question for Katarina (BS v Index play)

    > Katarina,
    > Looking at BS for S17 8D game, 17 v A is Surrender.

    Which you would get from Table 3.5.

    > The index is -3 and is listed as H/S.

    Now, you're looking in the Appendix, at Table A5, but you're looking at the H/S line, which tells you to stand if the TC is >= -3, but does not address late surrender, which is down below. There, in a separate box, you see to surrender 17 v. Ace if TC >=-6.

    > Does that mean Surrender is for a BS player only and
    > if counting, it's either Hit or Stand only?

    No. See above. Surrender is BS. If counting, surrender if TC >=-6.

    Don

  3. #3
    21forme
    Guest

    21forme: Re: Question for Katarina (BS v Index play)

    > Which you would get from Table 3.5.

    > Now, you're looking in the Appendix, at Table A5, but
    > you're looking at the H/S line, which tells you to
    > stand if the TC is >= -3, but does not address late
    > surrender, which is down below. There, in a separate
    > box, you see to surrender 17 v. Ace if TC >=-6.

    > No. See above. Surrender is BS. If counting, surrender
    > if TC >=-6.

    > Don

    Missed that, following instructions on p.91 to create the I18 and surrender indices (point 7, being < -4.)
    Thanks for the clarification, Don.
    Back to flashcard drills...

  4. #4
    Katarina Walker
    Guest

    Katarina Walker: Re: Question for Katarina (BS v Index play)

    > Katarina,
    > Looking at BS for S17 8D game, 17 v A is Surrender.
    > The index is -3 and is listed as H/S.
    > Does that mean Surrender is for a BS player only and
    > if counting, it's either Hit or Stand only?

    > Also, I'd like to keep the 8D S17 strategy relatively
    > simple, at least for starters. I plan on using the I18
    > + 3 Surrender indices. How important are the
    > composition-dependent plays to EV? Is it reasonable to
    > ignore the 4, 5, and 6 card deviations?

    > Thanks.

    It's the same as in Blackjack. You have separate H/S and surrender indices (see the bottom of the page for the surrender indices).
    For 17 versus Ace, the H/S index is -3. and the surrender index is -6.
    Therefore, if you are dealt an initial hand of 17 versus Ace, you surrender if the count is -6 or above.
    If you can't surrender (i.e. you've already hit), then you start using the H/S index.

    Indices ignore the bonuses of 4,5,6 card 21s and 6-7-8. It costs only 1% of your win rate (i.e. you earn $100 per hour instead of $101 per hour). So don't worry about the number of cards in your hand until you're more advanced.

    Page 91 will tell you how to abridge your S17 index chart to the I18.


  5. #5
    21forme
    Guest

    21forme: Thanks

    > It's the same as in Blackjack. You have separate H/S
    > and surrender indices (see the bottom of the page for
    > the surrender indices).
    > For 17 versus Ace, the H/S index is -3. and the
    > surrender index is -6.
    > Therefore, if you are dealt an initial hand of 17
    > versus Ace, you surrender if the count is -6 or above.
    > If you can't surrender (i.e. you've already hit), then
    > you start using the H/S index.

    > Indices ignore the bonuses of 4,5,6 card 21s and
    > 6-7-8. It costs only 1% of your win rate (i.e. you
    > earn $100 per hour instead of $101 per hour). So don't
    > worry about the number of cards in your hand until
    > you're more advanced.

    > Page 91 will tell you how to abridge your S17 index
    > chart to the I18.

    Thanks for the explanations, both you and Don.

    Regarding the I18 indices, for my style of play, I modified them by using all indices, including splits, soft hands, and surrender from -4 to 0. As I tend to backcount before sitting down, and wong out (or wong in place) when negative, I'll most likely never see the plays <-4. Also, since I'll have a minimum bet out at those counts, they affect EV minimally.

    BTW, I took my new Sp21 game to AC earlier this week and had a nice $2K win, spreading from one hand of $25 to 2 hands of $200. There was no heat whatsoever, and the PC even congratulated me on the win. Don't think that's ever happened at the BJ table. The other players at the tables bring a new definition to the term ploppy :.)

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