Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: MJ: CVCX Multiple Hands

  1. #1
    MJ
    Guest

    MJ: CVCX Multiple Hands

    Norm,

    About a year ago myself and several others asked about updating the software to include an optimal bet schedule for switching back and forth between 1 and 2 hands. This would be far more realistic than always playing either 1 hand or 2 hands. Anyway, you said it would be difficult to do post sim, but might be possible. Where do things stand on this matter?

    One thing I noticed on CVCX is that for play all, 2 hands is still far more profitable than playing 1 hand. Would switching back and forth between 1 hand in negative and neutral counts to 2 hands in positive counts yield the highest SCORE?

    MJ

  2. #2
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Re: CVCX Multiple Hands

    > About a year ago myself and several others asked about
    > updating the software to include an optimal bet
    > schedule for switching back and forth between 1 and 2
    > hands. This would be far more realistic than always
    > playing either 1 hand or 2 hands. Anyway, you said it
    > would be difficult to do post sim, but might be
    > possible. Where do things stand on this matter?

    It's on the list. I can't say when as it would require rerunning all sims.

    > One thing I noticed on CVCX is that for play all, 2
    > hands is still far more profitable than playing 1
    > hand. Would switching back and forth between 1 hand in
    > negative and neutral counts to 2 hands in positive
    > counts yield the highest SCORE?

    Generally speaking always two hands is considered better. But I haven't examined it that closely.

  3. #3
    MJ
    Guest

    MJ: Re: CVCX Multiple Hands

    > Generally speaking always two hands is considered
    > better. But I haven't examined it that closely.

    I thought if other players are at the table, then switching back and forth between 1 and 2 hands optimizes SCORE. If you always played 2 hands, then wouldn't you be placing twice as many bets in negative and neutral counts? How can the latter scenerio yield a higher SC0RE than the former?

    On the other hand, always playing 2 hands can burn through the negative and neutral counts in fewer rounds, thereby increasing the TC frequency of positive counts. Do you agree with that?

    MJ


  4. #4
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Re: CVCX Multiple Hands

    Suppose you take the following ramp:

    2x$5
    2x$10
    2x$25
    2x$50

    Are you saying that you will change the first bet to 1x$5 or 1x$10 or 1x$7 (adjusting for covariance?) To play with the same house perceived spread, you would need to alter the other three bets if starting with 1x$5 or 1x$7.

    Or you may to play the first two or three bets in the ramp as one hand. We need also to know the number of players and number of decks. There are a lot of variables. Unfortunately we can't just change the values after a sim as CVCX and BJRM do since the TC frequencies are affected.

    > I thought if other players are at the table, then
    > switching back and forth between 1 and 2 hands
    > optimizes SCORE. If you always played 2 hands, then
    > wouldn't you be placing twice as many bets in negative
    > and neutral counts? How can the latter scenerio yield
    > a higher SC0RE than the former?

    > On the other hand, always playing 2 hands can burn
    > through the negative and neutral counts in fewer
    > rounds, thereby increasing the TC frequency of
    > positive counts. Do you agree with that?

    > MJ

  5. #5
    MJ
    Guest

    MJ: Re: CVCX Multiple Hands

    > Suppose you take the following ramp:

    > 2x$5
    > 2x$10
    > 2x$25
    > 2x$50

    > Are you saying that you will change the first bet to
    > 1x$5 or 1x$10 or 1x$7 (adjusting for covariance?)

    The first bet would be 1 x $5, which would be for negative and neutral counts. Two bets (adjusted for covariance) would be placed in positive counts. Of course we are assuming there are 3 other players at the table and the kelly-factor for both scenerios is the same. It would be a 6 deck game with typical rules. I thought the SC0RE for the player switching between 1 and 2 hands would be higher than the player who always played 2 hands.

    MJ

  6. #6
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Re: CVCX Multiple Hands

    I haven't run the sims. Many would argue the opposite. A comprehensive study would be very interesting. IMO, such a study should also inlcude two hands with different bets.

    > The first bet would be 1 x $5, which would be for
    > negative and neutral counts. Two bets (adjusted for
    > covariance) would be placed in positive counts. Of
    > course we are assuming there are 3 other players at
    > the table and the kelly-factor for both scenerios is
    > the same. It would be a 6 deck game with typical
    > rules. I thought the SC0RE for the player switching
    > between 1 and 2 hands would be higher than the player
    > who always played 2 hands.

    > MJ

  7. #7
    MJ
    Guest

    MJ: Multiple Hands- Anyone??

    Someone on another board posted this question, which just happens to be what I am wondering. I am going to change the conditions just a bit to suit my game.

    Which of the following is the best for a 6D game, typical rules (DAS, DA2, RS3, 75% pen etc) with 3 other players at the table? All options below assume optimal betting with a fixed kelly-factor and multiple hand wagers must be adjusted for covariance.

    a) To play alone... Increasing and decreasing the bets with the count....
    b) To play two hands at a time every time.... Increasing and decreasing the bets with the count...
    c) To play one hand and if the count goes up play two hands and increase the bets, of course having the same bet on both.
    d) To play two hands and if the count goes up play only one hand and increase the bets...

    ETF made some interesting comments on this but I won't repost them here.

    Norm, can CVDATA answer this question by simulating optimal betting strategies where you switch the number of hands played based upon the count?

    MJ

  8. #8
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Re: Multiple Hands- Anyone??

    > Someone on another board posted this question, which
    > just happens to be what I am wondering. I am going to
    > change the conditions just a bit to suit my game.

    The responses on that board are just guesses. I'm not willing to guess and my sim machine is currently busy with shuffle-tracking sims.

    > ETF made some interesting comments on this but I won't
    > repost them here.

    Is this before or after he posted that no one should even install Casino Verite because it may destroy your PC?

    > Norm, can CVDATA answer this question by simulating
    > optimal betting strategies where you switch the number
    > of hands played based upon the count?

    CVData does not automatically create optimal betting rampts. CVCX does. But CVCX doesn't handle switching between one and two hands. To my knowledge, no software does and the situation is not covered in any of the literature on optimal betting. Adding this to CVCX is on my list. It could be simmed with CVData with some trial and error.

  9. #9
    MJ
    Guest

    MJ: Re: Multiple Hands- Anyone??

    > CVData does not automatically create optimal betting
    > rampts. CVCX does. But CVCX doesn't handle switching
    > between one and two hands. To my knowledge, no
    > software does and the situation is not covered in any
    > of the literature on optimal betting.

    OK, I did some research and there is a piece of software called Blackjack Audit which is suppose to sim switching back and forth between 1 hand and several hands based upon the count. It can be found over at BJInsider.com

    **Multi-player and bet spreading support: Is playing at first base better than third base? How are my expectation and Risk of Ruin affected if I spread my bets to several hands when the count is high?

    What do you think of the sim software?

    MJ


  10. #10
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Re: Multiple Hands- Anyone??

    CVData does switch between numbers of hands. It has since the first release. It just doesn't calculate optimal betting ramps that include changing numbers of hands. BJ Audit does not create optimal ramps at all and cannot calculate SCORE. It was used to create the phony Speed Count sims. The author created a paper on SCORE for BJInsider and had to remove it when Don informed him that the calcs were wrong.

    > OK, I did some research and there is a piece of
    > software called Blackjack Audit which is suppose to
    > sim switching back and forth between 1 hand and
    > several hands based upon the count. It can be found
    > over at BJInsider.com

    > **Multi-player and bet spreading support: Is playing
    > at first base better than third base? How are my
    > expectation and Risk of Ruin affected if I spread my
    > bets to several hands when the count is high?

    > What do you think of the sim software?

    > MJ

  11. #11
    MJ
    Guest

    MJ: Re: Multiple Hands- Anyone??

    > CVData does switch between numbers of hands. It has
    > since the first release. It just doesn't calculate
    > optimal betting ramps that include changing numbers of
    > hands.

    Would CVData provide a TC Frequency Distribution for when multiple hands are played in positive counts? What about the EV for when you would spread to 3 hands? I guess what I am wondering is how I can definitely answer this question. You said you can figure it out with CVData using trial and error. Would you just guess what the optimal bets are for card eating and then run the simulation?

    I think most people agree that card eating will have a higher SCORE then playing a single hand on a per round basis. However, DD pointed out that sims do not take into account the time factor...and DD is a smart man! I guess there needs to be some type of a conversion factor which takes time into account to equate single hands played per round to multiple hands played per round. For example, maybe 100 rounds played heads up is about equal to 70 rounds played at 3 hands/round.

    MJ

  12. #12
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Speed

    Yes CVData supplies TC Frequency data under any circumstances. The time factor is obviously also important. A simulator cannot calculate this number for you as it has no idea of the environment. That is why CVData allows you to set the hands/hour based on your own experience. At a dive in Puerto Rico I once had a dealer so fast the cards seemed to appear out of nowhere. In one visit to the old DI the dealer and I got into a rhythm and I think I topped 800 hands/hour. OTOH, I've had dealers and other players that seemed catatonic.

    > Would CVData provide a TC Frequency Distribution for
    > when multiple hands are played in positive counts?
    > What about the EV for when you would spread to 3
    > hands? I guess what I am wondering is how I can
    > definitely answer this question. You said you can
    > figure it out with CVData using trial and error. Would
    > you just guess what the optimal bets are for card
    > eating and then run the simulation?

    > I think most people agree that card eating will have a
    > higher SCORE then playing a single hand on a per round
    > basis. However, DD pointed out that sims do not take
    > into account the time factor...and DD is a smart man!
    > I guess there needs to be some type of a conversion
    > factor which takes time into account to equate single
    > hands played per round to multiple hands played per
    > round. For example, maybe 100 rounds played heads up
    > is about equal to 70 rounds played at 3 hands/round.

    > MJ

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

About Blackjack: The Forum

BJTF is an advantage player site based on the principles of comity. That is, civil and considerate behavior for the mutual benefit of all involved. The goal of advantage play is the legal extraction of funds from gaming establishments by gaining a mathematic advantage and developing the skills required to use that advantage. To maximize our success, it is important to understand that we are all on the same side. Personal conflicts simply get in the way of our goals.