Reid DeCardes: The Never Ending Counting System Question

[Reid DeCardes]

I am a low level counter who uses HiLo with the sweet 16 indexes and the Fab 4 surrender indexes. I mostly play 6D shoe games on the east coast but make it to Vegas once or twice a year and play 2D or 6D.

As an experiment I'd like to try a more advanced method. I'll practice with CV and if I find I can count accurately with a more advanced system, then great! If I find I have problems, well then I'll stick with HiLo. Nothing lost.

My question is, what system? Considering what I play, does Zen make the most sense? Wong Halves? Any suggestions?

I know the prudent advice is to stick with HiLo, perfect my counting and act and build a larger bankroll. But this is an experiment and a challange to me and I'd like to give it the ol' college try.

Thanks in advance.

[jblaze]

I would stick with HiLo. If you want to get fancy, and are going to Vegas to play single and double deck games, I would work on a 7 sidecount. I think this would up your playing efficiency to that of a multi level system, and you wouldn't have to relearn anything. I would be interesting in knowing the PE and BC comparison of HiLo w/sidecount 7s and UAPC normal. OK not that interested, but if anyone does know off the top of their head. Also, expand your indices rather than learn a new count.

> I am a low level counter who uses HiLo with the sweet
> 16 indexes and the Fab 4 surrender indexes. I mostly
> play 6D shoe games on the east coast but make it to
> Vegas once or twice a year and play 2D or 6D.

> As an experiment I'd like to try a more advanced
> method. I'll practice with CV and if I find I can
> count accurately with a more advanced system, then
> great! If I find I have problems, well then I'll stick
> with HiLo. Nothing lost.

> My question is, what system? Considering what I play,
> does Zen make the most sense? Wong Halves? Any
> suggestions?

> I know the prudent advice is to stick with HiLo,
> perfect my counting and act and build a larger
> bankroll. But this is an experiment and a challange to
> me and I'd like to give it the ol' college try.

> Thanks in advance.

[Trapper]

Norm has a strategy advisor on his web site. Might be a good way to narrow down the possibilities.

blackjack strategy advisor

[Parker]

First off, you should understand that if your goal is simply to increase EV, there are easier and more effective ways to do it than switching to a more complex counting system. Finding ways to increase your bet spread, coming up with creative ways to wong out of negative counts, and/or learning more indices are just a few.

Counting systems generally fall into 3 categories: Level one counts (ace reckoned), multi-level counts (ace reckoned), and multi-level ace neutral counts. The ace neutral systems require a side count of aces in order to be fully effective.

Within each group, the differences between systems are insignificant, and it becomes a matter of personal preference. In other words, Zen, Halves, and Fred Renzey's Mentor Count will all perform about the same.

Finally, the more complex systems need good games in order to really utilize their effectiveness. Norm has done a number of sims that indicate that, if you play mediocre (or worse) games, it really doesn't matter what system is used.

[ES]

> Counting systems generally fall into 3 categories:
> Level one counts (ace reckoned), multi-level counts
> (ace reckoned), and multi-level ace neutral counts.
> The ace neutral systems require a side count of aces
> in order to be fully effective.

Is ther a reason that you omitted the Hi-Opt I system, which is ace-neutral snd level 1?

[Parker]

> Is ther a reason that you omitted the Hi-Opt I system,
> which is ace-neutral snd level 1?

Yes. It does not perform significantly better than the ace-reckoned level one systems.

[Reid DeCardes]

Thank you all for the replies. You got me thinking. I decided to look at why I would want to do this. If I want an intellectual/skill challange, then I have that already with one of my personal passions in life, music. In terms of gambling, studying poker is also a challange and is working out well. So what do I gain by studying a more difficult count? Not much in terms of EV and I could lose som if I mess up the more complex count. As was pointed out I could learn more index numbers in HiLo and perfect my counting so that it is second nature.

So my plan is to stick with HiLo and improve my skill at it.

By the way, the QFIT advisor said to go with KO. I'm assuming that advice would be if i was starting out. I don't see much reason to switch to KO from HiLo at this point. They seem pretty neck and neck from looking at the graphs that Norm has produced. If I'm wrong about that then please feel free to say so.

Thanks again!

[Parker]

> Thank you all for the replies. You got me thinking. I
> decided to look at why I would want to do this. If I
> want an intellectual/skill challange, then I have that
> already with one of my personal passions in life,
> music. In terms of gambling, studying poker is also a
> challange and is working out well. So what do I gain
> by studying a more difficult count? Not much in terms
> of EV and I could lose som if I mess up the more
> complex count. As was pointed out I could learn more
> index numbers in HiLo and perfect my counting so that
> it is second nature.

Indeed. One occasionally overlooked fact is that all the sims comparing the various systems assume perfect play. However, a human being is more likely to make mistakes with a more complex system. In addition, using a more complex system will likely result in becoming mentally fatigued more quickly, and thus spending fewer hours at the tables.

> So my plan is to stick with HiLo and improve my skill
> at it.

I'd say that your logic is flawless.

> By the way, the QFIT advisor said to go with KO. I'm
> assuming that advice would be if i was starting out. I
> don't see much reason to switch to KO from HiLo at
> this point. They seem pretty neck and neck from
> looking at the graphs that Norm has produced. If I'm
> wrong about that then please feel free to say so.

Not at all. At the risk of being redundant, all level one systems perform roughly the same. If you're comfortable with Hi-lo, by all means stick with it. In addition, as the most popular and established system, there is a wealth of information available regarding Hi-lo.