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Thread: Sun Runner: 6:5 SD deeply dealt ..

  1. #1
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: 6:5 SD deeply dealt ..

    .. is it beatable?

    Typical LV strip rules for 6:5, dealt to about card 45 .. it may be non-existent, but would it be beatable? What if (humor me here) they dealt to the bottom, and beyond?

    1:2 spread.

    The SCORE?

    Just curious.


  2. #2
    Jack Fate
    Guest

    Jack Fate: Re: 6:5 SD deeply dealt ..

    > .. is it beatable?

    I'm no math guy but just about any game can be beat with a large enough spread.

  3. #3
    OldCootFromVA
    Guest

    OldCootFromVA: Re: 6:5 SD deeply dealt ..

    > .. is it beatable?

    If you can get a 1% overall edge in a game with a built-in 0.4% house edge, then your counting system has gained you a total of 1.4%.

    6:5 games have built-in house edges higher than 1.4%.

    Does this answer your question?

  4. #4
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Who cares?

    It is probably possible to gain a tiny positive EV using a huge spread.

    But why?

    As long as significant numbers of players refuse to play 6:5 games, the casinos will continue to offer other games, because they want everyone's money.

    So just say no.

  5. #5
    Magician
    Guest

    Magician: Re: 6:5 SD deeply dealt ..

    > .. is it beatable?

    > Typical LV strip rules for 6:5, dealt to about card 45
    > .. it may be non-existent, but would it be beatable?
    > What if (humor me here) they dealt to the bottom, and
    > beyond?

    > 1:2 spread.

    > The SCORE?

    Negative.

    The Hi-Lo TC needs to be about +5 to have an edge in this game. That will happen less than 10% of the time. Maybe you meant 1:20 spread?

    Unfortunately, you can't use CVCX for this because it seems single-deck penetration is limited to the range of 50-75%. (Norm, perhaps a new feature is in order - purely for theorists and dreamers of course?)

  6. #6
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Problem

    yes it's beatable with BOTH ridiculously deep penetration and a decent spread. But, there would be no 'ramp.' You would bet either min or max bet. And you would bet max bets nearly always near the end of the deck. That is, assuming you could find this game, you would have counter written all over your face.

  7. #7
    mysticmn2
    Guest

    mysticmn2: Re: 6:5 SD deeply dealt ..

    Kirk Warren made a study of this, he posted this on another site, this is just a tiny excerpt of a large report he did:
    <= 0 $5.00

    =+0 $5.00

    =+1 $5.00

    =+2 $5.00

    =+3 $40.00

    =+4 $80.00

    =+5 $120.00

    =+6 $160.00

    =+7 $160.00
    >=+8 $160.00
    Profit per 100 hands: $16.78

    I have not tried this big a spread, however, I've been tempted more than once to sit down at the outside tables at Harrahs, Thursday-Sunday nights, loud but fun atmosphere. They deal deep, allow DAS, and you can spread to 2 or 3 hands mid shoe. The 5$ tables are only half full, and the 10$ tables are often empty. I basically spun my wheels there for a couple hours going from 1@5$ to 2@75$ or something like that. It's just hard to wrap your mind around the facts, I play hi-lo with 45 indexes and it just seems like it should work. Osheas also has cheap 6:5, and they come close to running out of cards. But I spun my wheels there too.

    On my last trip I stayed clear of all 6:5 and concentrated on 2D and I made consistant cash compared to constant treading of water.

    It comes down to the rule of thumb where your advantage increases by about .5% for each bump in the TC. How much of that is due to the increased frequency of Black-Jacks, and how much of it is due to more dealer busts etc... I don't know. But it doesn't really matter, how long can you jump from 5$ to 150$ anyway.

    I think those places I mentioned had 5$ to 500$ or more, so if 5$ meant nothing to your bankroll, you could hang around for a while then try to knock it out of the park once or twice with a table max bet before having to leave. It's just to bad.

    Also, I forget where now, but I sat down at a SD table, I couldn't find the 6:5 marker, and I was looking everywhere for it. I bought in, but it looked too good to be true. I finally asked the dealer and he said it was 6:5 so I got up and left. Hell if I can remember where it was though, on the Strip. Ticked me off that they didn't display it, or if they did, the font is getting smaller and smaller!

  8. #8
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Thanks all.

    > That is, assuming you could find this game,
    > you would have counter written all over your face.

    Maybe, Maybe not.

    reference Norm .. No ramp? No problem. A min/max bet scheme might be the best cover possible anyway.

    reference Parker .. of course I would not play the 6:5 in the big locales as the game described will surely never show there.

    reference Magician .. it would be nice to be able to sim an 85%-100% pen game. I would'nt be the first 'theorist' here trying to figure out something of marginal use; as for the dreamer comment, odd games pop out in places you'd never expect.

    I'll never summarily write off any game being played for money, if I'm walking by them already, they all deserve at least a quick glance.

    Thanks again to all.


  9. #9
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Sims

    I ran a couple CVData sims. The exact penetration is extremely important. One card change makes all the diff.

  10. #10
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: How long is your thumb? And other esoterica

    It comes down to the rule of thumb where your advantage increases by about .5% for each bump in the TC. How much of that is due to the increased frequency of Black-Jacks, and how much of it is due to more dealer busts etc... I don't know.

    This rule of thumb is a rough measure to begin with. At SD, high penetration it breaks down rather badly. Four areas we don't bother to discuss too often come dramatically into play: floating advantage, missing TCs, end of deck subsets, and running out of cards.

    1. Floating Advantage tells us that the advantage at each TC is higher the deeper we are in the deck. So, the TC 0 advantage (What some people call the starting advantage) varies with penetration.

    2. At deep penetration, some TCs simply don't exist even if we use exact remaining cards as a divisor. If we use remaining quarter decks, some TCs don't exist at any penetration in SD. There just isn't a nominator and divisor that calculates to those TCs.

    3. At very deep penetration, the number of combinations of cards reaches a low enough number that unusual advantages per TC can occur.

    4. When you run out of cards, the deck reverses "polarity." That is, if you started a round with a high count and the dealer shuffles the cards not in play, the deck will now have a low count.

    I'll come up with a chart if I have time.

  11. #11
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Bit of a tricky chart

    This chart shows the advantage by TC for five areas of the deck. Rounds that start in the first ten cards, second ten cards, etc. Note, in the first ten cards TC +10 is not possible. In the third and fourth areas, +1 TC is not possible. In the last area, +1, +2, +3 and +7 are not possible. Advantages not only don't increase at an even rate per TC, they actually dip at a point in the fourth and fifth sections. You will note also that for rounds that begin in the last dozen cards, TC 0 has a positive advantage. And this is 6:5 BJ! True Counting was by rounding and deck estimation by exact cards.




    Blackjack Scams

  12. #12
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Thanks Norm ..

    > You will
    > note also that for rounds that begin in the last dozen
    > cards, TC 0 has a positive advantage. And this is 6:5
    > BJ!

    And a pretty decent edge at that! Thanks Norm. I'm confident it pays to dream a little, and keep your options open.

  13. #13
    Count of Montecristo
    Guest

    Count of Montecristo: Re: Thanks all.

    "I'll never summarily write off any game being played for money, if I'm walking by them already, they all deserve at least a quick glance."

    Absolutely. As a matter of fact I was doing the exact same thing when 6-5 first came to AC. It was the first day one of the casinos opened this game and they were dealing to the end of the deck and then reshuffling the discards to finish the hands. If those hands got finished off with a lot of low cards, then the rest of that short deck was already a good plus count and made for a few advantage plays. This only lasted for two days though, as they changed up that policy.

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