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Thread: Zach: Countable?

  1. #1
    Zach
    Guest

    Zach: Countable?

    Some casino's I went to over the holiday did not have shoes, but these machines that continuously shuffled the deck. After every round the dealer puts in the used cards. So there were never any cards in the discount tray.

    I didn't play, but am curious if this is possible to count? I am guessing not.

    Sidenote: Trackjack did not mention these machines...

  2. #2
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: No

    > Some casino's I went to over the holiday did not have
    > shoes, but these machines that continuously shuffled
    > the deck. After every round the dealer puts in the
    > used cards. So there were never any cards in the
    > discount tray.

    > I didn't play, but am curious if this is possible to
    > count? I am guessing not.

    Your guess is correct. Essentially, use of these Continuous Shuffle Machines, or CSM's, as they are commonly called, is the same as if the shoe were shuffled after every round. Fortunately (for us) they are expensive, they occasionally malfunction, and lots of people (in addition to card counters) don't like them.

    If you use the search function at top of the page and search for "CSM" you will find several threads discussing them.

    > Sidenote: Trackjack did not mention these machines...

    Trackjack is inconsistent on these. One school of thought is to not bother listing CSM games (or 6:5 games, for that matter), since they are indeed not playable (at least not by counting), the other viewpoint is that all blackjack games should be included.

    Input and suggestions are most welcome.

  3. #3
    Zach
    Guest

    Zach: Re: No

    > Trackjack is inconsistent on these. One school of
    > thought is to not bother listing CSM games (or 6:5
    > games, for that matter), since they are indeed not
    > playable (at least not by counting), the other
    > viewpoint is that all blackjack games should be
    > included.

    > Input and suggestions are most welcome.

    I think they should all be listed. Might as well keep a complete 'track' of all of the black 'jack' games. As you said, if they are expensive, and the casino has purchased one for every (almost every) table, they are going to use them. It is probably unlikely that they will revert back, thus it is not necessary to update as often.

    On the contrary, if you don't list them, and I am on vacation in a random state, see a bunch of ads for a casino, look it up on trackjack but don't see a listing, curiousity will likely prevail and I will probably go and check out the casino - and be extremely bummed when I realize the game is unplayable. In this last case, I wasted a hour or two driving etc. This is basically the reason I purchased TJ in the first place - to save time from going to casino's that offer bad games...

  4. #4
    Victoria
    Guest

    Victoria: the expense

    Zach

    Even though these things (CSMs) are expensive, their numbers have gone down in Vegas over the past few years.
    What casinos should have known in the first place but had to learn the hard way was that many players will not play with a machine like a CSM on the table. Furthermore, it works out that the bigger the player the less likely he is willing to play on a CSM and being an advantage player has nothing to do with it. So when you go to Vegas today you find CSM's on low roller tables and none in any high limit rooms. If all you are left with is red chippers and all your black chip players have gone next door, the expense of the machine is unimportant, it is too expensive to keep.

    Now once you move away from a casino town the story can be different. You own a casino with no competition nearby and a bunch of addicted gamblers, you can probably install any device you want and your players will show up.

    Victoria

  5. #5
    Bettie
    Guest

    Bettie: I don't understand

    > I think they should all be listed. Might as well keep
    > a complete 'track' of all of the black 'jack' games.
    > As you said, if they are expensive, and the casino has
    > purchased one for every (almost every) table, they are
    > going to use them. It is probably unlikely that they
    > will revert back, thus it is not necessary to update
    > as often.

    > On the contrary, if you don't list them, and I am on
    > vacation in a random state, see a bunch of ads for a
    > casino, look it up on trackjack but don't see a
    > listing, curiousity will likely prevail and I will
    > probably go and check out the casino - and be
    > extremely bummed when I realize the game is
    > unplayable. In this last case, I wasted a hour or two
    > driving etc. This is basically the reason I purchased
    > TJ in the first place - to save time from going to
    > casino's that offer bad games...

    If you go to Trackjack and don't see any playable games listed for the casino you looked up, why would you blame Trackjack for your "wasted" time and not your own simple curiosity? Not that I blame you for wanting to check it out yourself to see what they DID have, but you shouldn't knock Trackjack for that. If TJ had listed a good game that wasn't there, I could understand the complaint, but not in this situation.

    BTW, I also believe that all games should be listed, but it's a lot more important to make sure that all playable games listed are accurate and we will deal with adding/ignoring the unplayable games when the more important work has been done.

    Parker has only recently taken over as editor of Trackjack and has a lot of great ideas that Viktor is working to incorporate. We welcome contributions (it is supposed to be a community site, after all) and corrections of course, but it's a lot of work, regardless.

    Hope you got SOME good info out of the site!
    Bettie

  6. #6
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Re: No

    > I think they should all be listed. Might as well keep
    > a complete 'track' of all of the black 'jack' games.
    > As you said, if they are expensive, and the casino has
    > purchased one for every (almost every) table, they are
    > going to use them. It is probably unlikely that they
    > will revert back, thus it is not necessary to update
    > as often.

    As Victoria stated, there are fewer CSM's in Las Vegas than there were a couple of years ago. Casinos lease rather than purchase them, and many casinos chose not to renew their leases. Players don't like them and dealers don't like them (not that the dealers have much of a voice in these matters).

    OTOH, 6:5 single deck games seem to be popping up everywhere.

    > On the contrary, if you don't list them, and I am on
    > vacation in a random state, see a bunch of ads for a
    > casino, look it up on trackjack but don't see a
    > listing, curiousity will likely prevail and I will
    > probably go and check out the casino - and be
    > extremely bummed when I realize the game is
    > unplayable. In this last case, I wasted a hour or two
    > driving etc. This is basically the reason I purchased
    > TJ in the first place - to save time from going to
    > casino's that offer bad games...

    As Bettie mentioned, the premise is that if you don't see a listing, then there are no playable games there. If you want to go look anyway, fine, but don't blame Trackjack.

    That being said, I do appreciate your comments, and my inclination is indeed to list all games. However, our resources are not unlimited, and given a choice between updating/verifying the conditions on playable games or running around counting CSM's and 6:5 tables, there is no doubt where our priorities should be.


  7. #7
    Trapper
    Guest

    Trapper: Another vote for listing all casinos

    Outside of Las Vegas and a few other destinations, visits to casinos often require long drives. In these situations, the information that a casino has only unplayable games is almost as valuable as the information about the playable casinos. How much extra effort would be involved in listing casinos with all unplayable games? Presumably, a casino would have to be checked out at least once anyway to determine whether it will be listed or not. It probably isn't necessary to provide detailed information for the number of tables or rules at casinos which have all CSMs or 6:5 blackjack. There would also be little need to update those sites until playable conditions returned (if ever). Of course the priority should always be to list the casinos which offer a beatable game.

    Unfortunately, although CSMs are on the decrease in Las Vegas, the opposite is the case in some parts of North America and the world.

    > Parker has only recently taken over as editor of
    > Trackjack and has a lot of great ideas that Viktor is
    > working to incorporate.

    I am looking forward to checking out Trackjack again in the future. Lots of good ideas. Using SCORE as a reference point for games, for example, is a good one. Running a service like this is probably a thankless task and there will never be enough resources to cover the field in a way that satisfies everyone but since you are asking for input we might as well shoot for the moon.

  8. #8
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Re: the expense

    > Now once you move away from a casino town the story can be different.

    I don't live in a casino town but I do live in an area relativley new to dealing BJ. Originally this area was flooded with ASMs / CSMs and any and all available tables were flooded with ploppies.

    As I make my periodic rounds looking for playable opportunites I have noticed that when times are slow, it is the ASM tables, rather than the CSM tables that are open; the CSMs being relegated to the back of the pits gathering dust.

    I am hopeful even the ploppies are getting the message to management. Now, if they will only quit playing the ASMs, things might begin to look up.

  9. #9
    Victoria
    Guest

    Victoria: Re: No/conversation during Thanksgiving

    This post is backing for Parker's statement about dealers disliking CSM's

    I spent Thanksgiving in Vegas at a family members home. First a little explaination about my mixed up family. There are seven members who have worked for casinos in gaming and four of them have had exec type positions. Also in my family are three generations of cardcounters. All of this began with a great uncle, now deceased, who was both a table game manager and a cardcounter.

    A younger cousin who against family advice became a dealer was complaining (as dealers tend to do) about things in general in his casino. Seems he got stuck on a CSM table several days and his opinion is that it kills tokes. He and I think many dealers believe that they can make friends with players through small talk during the shuffle resulting in tokes. He went on saying that CSM's make the players lose faster because there are more hands and that it is all about the casino making more at the expense of both player and dealer. Also that the casino hates the so called downtime of the shuffle. Furthermore, he complained about every new carnival game, saying they were all designed to make sure the casino got much more money and the dealers less.

    So yes, my cousin hates CSM's and carnival games though his reasons are his and not ours.

    Victoria

  10. #10
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Your cousin

    > He went on saying that CSM's make the players lose faster
    > because there are more hands ..

    > Also that the casino hates the so called downtime of the shuffle.

    > Furthermore, he complained about every new carnival game,
    > saying they were all designed to make sure the casino got
    > much more money ..

    > So yes, my cousin hates CSM's and carnival games though his reasons are his and not ours.

    Outside of your cousin's possible mis-placed paranoia about the casino's disdain for their own dealers, your cousin sounds fairly smart to me.

    I live in an area relatively new to dealing BJ and 95% of the local casinos opened their doors with CSMs and ASMs. Add'lly 99% of the tables, then and now, are populated by hardcore ploppies.

    I could never find a relationship between which tables used CSMs and which used ASMs -the pits are small and the table limits, generally, are small and standard.

    Interestingly enough, about one year later, the CSMs are getting pushed back out of play unless the volume of players requires a table to be opened up and they need a shuffler.

    Parker's comment that most CSMs are leased and not purchased was new to me. Maybe they are on the way out due to that. Or maybe even the ploppies are finally getting it. If so, I continue to hope that the ploppies will also get sick of the ASMs.

  11. #11
    Victoria
    Guest

    Victoria: Re: Your cousin

    Sunrunner

    I do not think my cousin is suffering with paranoia and you might agree with a little more detail concerning the carnival games and a little thinking from a dealers point of view.
    The beancounters, as he and many of us call them, see a ploppy walk in with say $500 to lose. If he plays blackjack he perhaps might lose $450 to the casino and $50 to the toke pool, but on a carnival game the breakdown might be $490 to the casino and $10 to the pool. I think there is something to what he says but he finished saying it after spending a shift at a busy casino on a dead Carribean Stud game.

    The casinos do not really care if the dealers do not like the game just as they do not care what advantage players want. The reason for lack of CSM's is that the average player and especially the $25 and up guy who is a loser, just do not want to play on those tables. That uneducated or partially educated, non advantage player dictates what happens because he is the bottom line.
    The CSM is sold or leased to casinos by appealing to the two easiest things in casino mentality, greed and paranoia. The greed of more hands and the paranoia of cardcounting. It is a failure because they land up getting those more hands only on the lower limit tables and they really did not need to worry about cardcounters at those low limits anyway.
    Just like Mindplay, after its trail at the Hilton and now at the Flamingo, we do not see it being installed all over town. The ploppys are uncomfortable with it even if they have no idea of what it is. Sold by greed and paranoia and a failure.

    I think I may have said this before, but if you want to really make money off of casinos, the best way is to invent a product that will appeal to that greed and paranoia. Your product does not even have to do the job, but the money will flow in till the casinos figure it out and then have a new improved one for them.

    Finally, my cousin does not really appreciate how lucky he is. Family juice saved him from paying dues in breakin joints and his first job is at a well paying place. Even his mother (a retired pit boss) though has told him the money is a trap and he should further educate himself and get out of dealing quickly.

    Victoria

  12. #12
    Zach
    Guest

    Zach: Re: I don't understand

    Bettie: I guess I was not clear. Trackjack did list 2 games that were not there - or more precisely they were there, but with CSM's and no shoes. There was no mention of CSM's on the site. It would have been a completely different story if there were no listings, or if it had said 'uses CSMs'. If you want to email me, then I can tell you the casinos to look for yourself.

    In no way am I knocking Trackjack. I am 110% appreciative for what Parker and everyone else who has helped or will help have done to the site. Additionally, You, Don, Parker et al have no idea how much you have helped me hone my skills.

    Zach

    > If you go to Trackjack and don't see any playable
    > games listed for the casino you looked up, why would
    > you blame Trackjack for your "wasted" time
    > and not your own simple curiosity? Not that I blame
    > you for wanting to check it out yourself to see what
    > they DID have, but you shouldn't knock Trackjack for
    > that. If TJ had listed a good game that wasn't there,
    > I could understand the complaint, but not in this
    > situation.

    > BTW, I also believe that all games should be listed,
    > but it's a lot more important to make sure that all
    > playable games listed are accurate and we will deal
    > with adding/ignoring the unplayable games when the
    > more important work has been done.

    > Parker has only recently taken over as editor of
    > Trackjack and has a lot of great ideas that Viktor is
    > working to incorporate. We welcome contributions (it
    > is supposed to be a community site, after all) and
    > corrections of course, but it's a lot of work,
    > regardless.

    > Hope you got SOME good info out of the site!
    > Bettie

  13. #13
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Trackjack updates

    > Bettie: I guess I was not clear. Trackjack did list 2
    > games that were not there - or more precisely they
    > were there, but with CSM's and no shoes. There was no
    > mention of CSM's on the site. It would have been a
    > completely different story if there were no listings,
    > or if it had said 'uses CSMs'. If you want to email
    > me, then I can tell you the casinos to look for
    > yourself.

    If a CSM game is listed, it should say "CSM" under shuffle method. Here is an example of a CSM game listing:

    5D H17 DA2 DAS Sp3 SpA3 LS FU CSM 40+T 0% $10/10,000 ?0.432%

    If a game is incorrectly listed, please, either post an update or drop me an e-mail so that I can update it.

    > In no way am I knocking Trackjack. I am 110%
    > appreciative for what Parker and everyone else who has
    > helped or will help have done to the site.
    > Additionally, You, Don, Parker et al have no idea how
    > much you have helped me hone my skills.

    Thanks for the kind words.

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