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Thread: DeanClean: Panama City : These definately aren't Atlantic City rules.

  1. #1
    DeanClean
    Guest

    DeanClean: Panama City : These definately aren't Atlantic City rules.

    Good Sunday Everyone.

    I'm a sailor in the U.S. Navy. A big hello to everyone from the Pacific.

    We've been doing frequent port visits in Panama City and I'd like to ask a question on a variation of the game played down here.

    Dealer deals the first card to everyone face up as usual, and deals one to herself face up. After that, the second card is dealt to all players, but the dealer stops short of dealing one face down to herself.

    Play begins on the left side of the dealer as usual and continues through to third base on the right. After that, the dealer takes the next card on the deck and continues play as usual... Stay on 17 (Hard) and above.

    A few variations on these rules:
    #1 - If you double down during play, and the dealer is showing an ACE and ends up having blackjack, you only end up loosing your original bet.
    #2 - If you SPLIT during play and the dealer is showing an ACE and ends up having blackjack, you only end up loosing your original bet.
    #3 - You can request even money vs. Dealer ACE if you have blackjack. Otherwise, if a face card is showing, payout occurs after the dealer takes her cards. If she gets BJ, it's a push!
    #4 - You may take insurance if the dealer shows an ACE at the beginning of play as usual.

    But there are a few rules on the table that make it very sweet:

    #1 - Unlimited Splits (Even with Aces).
    #2 - Double Down is allowed after splits.
    #3 - You MAY double down on three cards! (EX... I have 5 + 3, dealer throw me a 3... I can double.)
    #4 - Double down on any amount, two or three cards.
    #5 - Surrender is allowed.
    #6 - Six cards is an automatic winner and pays out immediately. (That's not a six card 21... that's merely six cards!)

    As usual, blackjack pays 3 to 2, Insurance 2 to 1.

    I haven't lost on these tables yet... and have enjoyed the sites of Panama City off Casino winnings alone.

    Can someone tell me the shift in house advantage compared to Atlantic City, Reno, or Vegas rules? Am I doing better at this table then I would back in the states or is there an element that I'm not seeing that's giving the house more of an advantage?

    Thanks!

    - Scott

  2. #2
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Rules, comments

    Welcome to AdvantagePlayer.com. I'm a former sailor myself.

    What you are describing is no hole card blackjack. This is common in many parts of the world. Fortunately, you have the good kind, in which only your original bet if lost if the dealer gets a blackjack. In much of Europe you would lose doubled and split bets as well.

    There is no difference, strategy-wise or edge-wise, between the type of no-hole card you describe, and the usual American game with a hole card.

    The rules are indeed quite good. You did not mention how many decks are in play, so I assumed 6. I also took "stay on 17 (hard)" to mean that the dealer hits soft 17. Given this and the rules you describe, TrackJack computes the house advantage to be .124%. To put this in perspective, a typical Atlantic City game (6D, S17, DAS, NS) has a house advantage of about .44%.

    Doubling down on 3 cards is really valuable, as it provides additional opportunity to get more money on the table when you have an advantage.

    You also didn't mention penetration. Unless it is really bad (2 decks or more cut off), this is a very playable game. If pen is mediocre (cut card at 1.5 decks) or better, it can be beaten with even a modest spread.

    BTW, "even money" is the same as taking insurance on a blackjack. Think about it.


  3. #3
    DeanClean
    Guest

    DeanClean: Re: Rules, comments

    Parker -

    Thanks a million for the comments. You were absolutely right about the six deck... apologize for leaving it out of my original message.

    As for penetration, it depended on the dealer. It was very clear to me that some of the dealers at this casino (El Panama Hotel, Panama City) were not the best... so penetration really depended on the dealer. I noticed penetration sometimes as high as two decks but sometimes as low as 1 deck. Just depended on who was dealing. I don't know if the house made the rules on penetration very clear to them or perhaps the house didn't supervise it very well.

    The pit bosses were sloppy and didn't know their job very well. It seemed they were more concerned with waitresses and clean ashtrays then with my bet. This tells me that they don't have good comms with the security room or perhaps their camera monitors aren't professional gamblers and couldn't catch my counting anyway.

    I'm going back to the casino in a few days for a three day gambling binge. I'll be using a K-O strategy and seeing what it does for me. If house advantage is only .14%, perhaps I can enjoy a 1.5 - 2% advantage with a ten heavy shoe.

    Should I alter the basic strategy table any to compensate for the liberal rules on the table? I was thinking the spliting situations would probably become more liberal.

    Thanks again for the assistance! Appreciate the answers.

  4. #4
    Arber
    Guest

    Arber: I got differnent number???

    > The rules are indeed quite good. You did not mention
    > how many decks are in play, so I assumed 6. I also
    > took "stay on 17 (hard)" to mean that the
    > dealer hits soft 17. Given this and the rules you
    > describe, TrackJack computes the house advantage to be
    > .124%.
    Based on Theory of BJ:
    H17 6D - .75
    DOA + .14
    RSA + .07
    ES10 + .24
    6 cards automatic win

    + .1
    Double 3 or more cards

    + .24
    The game is about even off-the-top assuming double on 2 or 3 cards only reducing the last option to + .2.
    Can DeanClen clarifies whether the game is H17 or S17 and also ES10 not full ES also double 2 or 3 cards only not 4 cards etc.?

  5. #5
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Oops.

    > Based on Theory of BJ:
    > H17 6D - .75
    > DOA + .14
    > RSA + .07
    > ES10 + .24
    > 6 cards automatic win

    > + .1
    > Double 3 or more cards

    > + .24
    > The game is about even off-the-top assuming double on
    > 2 or 3 cards only reducing the last option to + .2.
    > Can DeanClen clarifies whether the game is H17 or S17
    > and also ES10 not full ES also double 2 or 3 cards
    > only not 4 cards etc.?

    I calculated it with late surrender, since the poster did not specify. However, since the dealer does not take a hole card, it would be reasonable to assume that it is at least ES10. Early surrender vs. 10 would make it very close to break-even off the top. If it has full ES and/or S17, it would be positive off the top for the basic strategy player.

    One thing about hosting this site - if I make a mistake, someone will call me on it. :-)

  6. #6
    DeanClean
    Guest

    DeanClean: Re: Oops.

    > I calculated it with late surrender, since the poster
    > did not specify. However, since the dealer does not
    > take a hole card, it would be reasonable to assume
    > that it is at least ES10. Early surrender vs. 10 would
    > make it very close to break-even off the top. If it
    > has full ES and/or S17, it would be positive off the
    > top for the basic strategy player.

    Early Surrender - Yes. If the dealer is showing a 10, I can surrender before the dealer determines if she has blackjack.

    Also... dealer hits on soft 17.

  7. #7
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Surrender

    > Early Surrender - Yes. If the dealer is showing a 10,
    > I can surrender before the dealer determines if she
    > has blackjack.

    Okay, that would be ES10. What if the dealer is showing an ace? ES10 is better than late surrender, but Early Surrender (you can surrender against ace upcard before the dealer determines if she has blackjack) is extremely valuable.

    > Also... dealer hits on soft 17.

    That's what I figured.

  8. #8
    DeanClean
    Guest

    DeanClean: Re: Surrender

    > Okay, that would be ES10. What if the dealer is
    > showing an ace? ES10 is better than late surrender,
    > but Early Surrender (you can surrender against ace
    > upcard before the dealer determines if she has
    > blackjack) is extremely valuable.

    ES10. You cannot surrender on an ACE. I should have been a little more clear.

    Parker, do the rules I outlined have any bearing on basic strategy? Should we alter the charts at all?

    Thanks for all the help.

    - DC

  9. #9
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Re: Surrender

    > ES10. You cannot surrender on an ACE. I should have
    > been a little more clear.

    > Parker, do the rules I outlined have any bearing on
    > basic strategy? Should we alter the charts at all?

    Basic strategy could probably be fine-tuned to squeeze out a bit more EV, but I would not start blindly making changes without running sims or doing a combinatorial analysis. I don't think you give up much by using standard H17 DAS multideck strategy (and your KO Preferred matrix, of course).

    Although I'd be sorely tempted to hit 5 card hard 17's against strong dealer upcards in negative counts. :-)

  10. #10
    Arber
    Guest

    Arber: Check Professional BJ

    There are some strategies for 6 cards automatic win and doubling 3 cards options such as hitting all 5 cards 15.

  11. #11
    ES
    Guest

    ES: Re: Check Professional BJ

    "Basic Blackjack" has basic Strategy for such rules, "Professional Blackjack" has High-Low and Halves count strategies.

    > There are some strategies for 6 cards automatic win
    > and doubling 3 cards options such as hitting all 5
    > cards 15.

  12. #12
    BJTr
    Guest

    BJTr: DoA or D9? *NM*


  13. #13
    Allan ODale
    Guest

    Allan ODale: Re: Panama City : These definately aren't Atlantic City rules.

    panama is the only place where a NON=shuffle tracker like me looks carefully at the shuffle.

    i saw little uniformity from dealer to dealer... and many did so little to the unplayed cards that they were easy to track thru the minimal shuffle.

    also, be aware that rule details are not fixed casino to casino, or even shift to shift or dealer to dealer within a casino. make the play you want to make... it may well be allowed!

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