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Thread: Robert: Hi-Lo Index Play

  1. #1
    Robert
    Guest

    Robert: Hi-Lo Index Play

    I have memorized (and always use) 35 Hi-Lo index plays, the illust 18 plus 17 more "good and easily memorized" ones, for all BJ games; which are mostly backcounted 6 decks and "play most" deeply dealt 2 deck games.

    The question is.....neither Don's BJA nor Wong's Prof BJ offer an index for 14 (non-pair) versus a dealer 10. I know it's high, between 8 and 14 I would imagine, and I know it won't affect my bottom line one bit....but I would still like to know what it is, especially for 2 deck games....because the play occurs fairly often.....and it would provide good cover I think, especially when used with another cover play soon thereafter.

    I assume that the reason for this is related to the fact that the ratio of sevens in the deck is unknown, but simulation results must surely converge on some index for the play.

    Thanks in Advance, Robert

  2. #2
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Re: Hi-Lo Index Play

    > I have memorized (and always use) 35 Hi-Lo
    > index plays, the illust 18 plus 17 more
    > "good and easily memorized" ones,
    > for all BJ games; which are mostly
    > backcounted 6 decks and "play
    > most" deeply dealt 2 deck games.

    > The question is.....neither Don's BJA nor
    > Wong's Prof BJ offer an index for 14
    > (non-pair) versus a dealer 10. I know it's
    > high, between 8 and 14 I would imagine, and
    > I know it won't affect my bottom line one
    > bit....but I would still like to know what
    > it is, especially for 2 deck
    > games....because the play occurs fairly
    > often.....and it would provide good cover I
    > think, especially when used with another
    > cover play soon thereafter.

    > I assume that the reason for this is related
    > to the fact that the ratio of sevens in the
    > deck is unknown, but simulation results must
    > surely converge on some index for the play.

    Remember, we surrender this hand (if we can) at +3. As you surmise, this is one useless index number, and the fact that Hi-lo doesn't count the 7 means that it won't be very accurate either.

    It may seem to "occur fairly often," but I doubt that it occurs very often at counts high enough to trigger the index. At least, for your sake, I hope it doesn't. :-)

    I'm not aware of any published list of indices that goes this far. If you really must know, you'll need to obtain a simulator capable of generating indices (CVData or SBC) and generate your own set.

  3. #3
    Keith Collins
    Guest

    Keith Collins: One point

    > I have memorized (and always use) 35 Hi-Lo
    > index plays, the illust 18 plus 17 more
    > "good and easily memorized" ones,
    > for all BJ games; which are mostly
    > backcounted 6 decks and "play
    > most" deeply dealt 2 deck games.

    > The question is.....neither Don's BJA nor
    > Wong's Prof BJ offer an index for 14
    > (non-pair) versus a dealer 10. I know it's
    > high, between 8 and 14 I would imagine, and
    > I know it won't affect my bottom line one
    > bit....but I would still like to know what
    > it is, especially for 2 deck
    > games....because the play occurs fairly
    > often.....and it would provide good cover I
    > think, especially when used with another
    > cover play soon thereafter.

    > I assume that the reason for this is related
    > to the fact that the ratio of sevens in the
    > deck is unknown, but simulation results must
    > surely converge on some index for the play.

    > Thanks in Advance, Robert

    If every single low card (2 - 6) is removed from the shoe and the TC is as positive as it can be, there basically can't be a loss of EV by hitting 14 v 10, only a gain. If it turns out there are no sevens remaining, you will bust, but if you don't hit, you still always lose to dealer's pat hand. Now if you absolutely know no 2-6 and no sevens remain, your only chance of gaining EV is to hope to draw at least 4 consecutive aces, but you'd have to be the best player around to recognize such a scenario and the EV gain wouldn't be much anyway.

    Generically, 14 v 10 is not on the Hi-Lo radar screen.

    Hope this helps,
    Keith Collins

  4. #4
    Brick Waller
    Guest

    Brick Waller: Re: Hi-Lo Index Play

    Use 14TC as the index number to stand on 14vs10.
    I think the actual index is just under 14.

    It's true that 14 vs 10 occurs often,but a 14 vs 10 at a true count of 14 or better very rarely occurs,however if you dont have a problem remembering the index number then you may as well use it,I do. It's very simple to remember "Index for 14 is 14". Dont get much easier than that! Care to share an out of bound index number you're using?

  5. #5
    Zenfighter
    Guest

    Zenfighter: Re: It isn't worth.

    2 dks, 14 vs. T, Hilo correlations.

     

    T,4 vs. T = .399815
    9,5 vs. T = .402984
    8,6 vs. T = .399048
    7,7 vs. T = .443722



    As you can see the Hilo point count is very poorly correlated with the play in question.
    Moral, just play the hand following basic strategy.

    Hope this helps.

    Zenfighter

  6. #6
    stainless steel rat
    Guest

    stainless steel rat: Re: Hi-Lo Index Play

    > Remember, we surrender this hand (if we can)
    > at +3. As you surmise, this is one useless
    > index number, and the fact that Hi-lo
    > doesn't count the 7 means that it won't be
    > very accurate either.

    > It may seem to "occur fairly
    > often," but I doubt that it occurs very
    > often at counts high enough to trigger the
    > index. At least, for your sake, I hope it
    > doesn't. :-)

    I am one unlucky SOB. I played 1029 hands using CVBJ last night. I just ran back thru the playing log history and found that for the hand T4 vs 9, I saw it 7 times with a TC of 3, 3, -1, -2, 4, -1, 3.

    For T4 vs T, I saw it 11 times with a TC of -1, 2, 5, 0, 9, -1, 5, 0, -2, 0, 0

    For T4 vs A, I saw it 2 times with a TC of -2, -1.

    11 out of 1029 hands is not a lot, but for two of those (TC=5 and 9) I had bit bets out and surrender saved some money and variance.

    I used to think "No point in learning all these different indices because each one occurs so very infrequently." But after studying these kinds of CVBJ playing logs, I suddenly realized _most_ hands / indices are very rare. But it is nice to know when do double 8 vs 6 for example, which is no less common than 10 vs A. Both can happen with big bets out, and a big count, and the opportunity to further increase the profit.

    Just my $.02 mixed in with some practice playing last night. Note that my T4 hands are _only_ T4 hands. I didn't include 77, 86 and 95, as there is no "search facility" in the log display that I could find, and my eyes just about exploded trying to find just the hands that started T4 or 4T in the history. This is on a Sony laptop with a 12.4" screen so the characters are small, my eyes are old, and the log was long.

  7. #7
    Robert
    Guest

    Robert: Re: Hi-Lo Index Play

    > Use 14TC as the index number to stand on
    > 14vs10.
    > I think the actual index is just under 14.

    > It's true that 14 vs 10 occurs often,but a
    > 14 vs 10 at a true count of 14 or better
    > very rarely occurs,however if you dont have
    > a problem remembering the index number then
    > you may as well use it,I do. It's very
    > simple to remember "Index for 14 is
    > 14". Dont get much easier than that!
    > Care to share an out of bound index number
    > you're using?

    No, but I'll tell you all that I use:
    Insurance
    Player 16 vs Dealer 7 thru A
    15 vs. 7-A
    13 vs. 2-4
    12 vs. 2-6
    11 vs. 9-A
    10 vs. 9-A
    9 vs. 2,3,4,and 7
    8 vs. 5,6
    A,3 vs 4
    A,6&A,7 vs 2
    A,8 vs 5,6
    4,4 vs 4
    10,10 vs 5,6
    I guess that's 39 index plays altogether. The player 10 thru 16 hands are easily memorized as a row. All told, these have served me well.

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