SpiderMan: Back-Counting Question 2

[WallStRunoff]

We should be a little more understanding of the "ploppy". These players keep the games going. If their obnoxious thats one thing, but I personally like most of them. They just want to enjoy themselves so why the hostility? Making friends with them is the best cover an AP can have. Enjoy yourself at the tables and the casino's will not hate us so much. I have yet to be hastled (and I've been playing a couple StDev's above forecast) and I think its becuase I make it a point to socialize and have fun with the other customers.

Just a thought.

[gorilla player]

> We should be a little more understanding of
> the "ploppy". These players keep
> the games going. If their obnoxious thats
> one thing, but I personally like most of
> them. They just want to enjoy themselves so
> why the hostility? Making friends with them
> is the best cover an AP can have. Enjoy
> yourself at the tables and the casino's will
> not hate us so much. I have yet to be
> hastled (and I've been playing a couple
> StDev's above forecast) and I think its
> becuase I make it a point to socialize and
> have fun with the other customers.

> Just a thought.

I like the original definition of ploppy, that is, a player that is simply obnoxious. Or, more often, obnoxious and wrong. Ploppies don't know BS. That's ok. If they are polite, or chatty, or whatever, I enjoy having them around. But the true "ploppy" plays strangely, comments on others play by making statements that are simply false (you never double a 11 vs dealer 10, because John Patrick says so) or whatever.

IE I equate "ploppy" with any of (a) obnoxious; (b) argumentative; (c) jerk; (d) etc. IE I could easily tell every player at the table how to play perfect BS after they make a mistake. I don't. I don't complain about 3rd base hitting when he should stand or vice-versa. So "non-ploppies" are people like me that enjoy the game, carry on conversations, trade stories, and don't jump on someone for playing incorrectly. Ploppies are more likely to storm off if 3rd base does something that causee him to lose a single hand, even if 3rd base mistakes had made him win several previous hands.

I have zero problems playing with raw beginners. It is the "ploppy attitude" that drives me nuts. To hear them make outrageous playing suggestions to beginners, for starters... or to hear them berate third base even though the ploppy just stood on a 12 vs dealer 10 and wrecked the rest of the table behind him... That is the kind of player I'll gladly split 10's with, or double an A-9 vs dealer 6 to get him to leave.

[Ouchez]

> I like the original definition of ploppy,
> that is, a player that is simply obnoxious.
> Or, more often, obnoxious and wrong.
> Ploppies don't know BS. That's ok. If they
> are polite, or chatty, or whatever, I enjoy
> having them around. But the true
> "ploppy" plays strangely, comments
> on others play by making statements that are
> simply false (you never double a 11 vs
> dealer 10, because John Patrick says so) or
> whatever.

> IE I equate "ploppy" with any of
> (a) obnoxious; (b) argumentative; (c) jerk;
> (d) etc. IE I could easily tell every player
> at the table how to play perfect BS after
> they make a mistake. I don't. I don't
> complain about 3rd base hitting when he
> should stand or vice-versa. So
> "non-ploppies" are people like me
> that enjoy the game, carry on conversations,
> trade stories, and don't jump on someone for
> playing incorrectly. Ploppies are more
> likely to storm off if 3rd base does
> something that causee him to lose a single
> hand, even if 3rd base mistakes had made him
> win several previous hands.

> I have zero problems playing with raw
> beginners. It is the "ploppy
> attitude" that drives me nuts. To hear
> them make outrageous playing suggestions to
> beginners, for starters... or to hear them
> berate third base even though the ploppy
> just stood on a 12 vs dealer 10 and wrecked
> the rest of the table behind him... That is
> the kind of player I'll gladly split 10's
> with, or double an A-9 vs dealer 6 to get
> him to leave.

by an AP any time it is neccessary to improve our EV. I give them wrong information, when it is good for me, get them to sit and play, when it is good for me, and scare them off when it is good for me.

Other than that I could care less about them, as a group they are simply ignorant and foolish. The casino screws them.... and so will I.

Strength and Honor.
Ouch/ez.

[pm]

> by an AP any time it is neccessary to
> improve our EV. I give them wrong
> information, when it is good for me, get
> them to sit and play, when it is good for
> me, and scare them off when it is good for
> me.

> Other than that I could care less about
> them, as a group they are simply ignorant
> and foolish. The casino screws them.... and
> so will I.

> Strength and Honor.
> Ouch/ez.

That's music to my ears. Two scenarios:

a) If they're going in knowing they're probably going to lose, well hey, at least they (unknowingly) helped out someone else in the process.

b) If they actually expect to win, then they belong to the dregs of humanity. What kind of an idiot doesn't realize that gambling is just that: it's a gamble? How can you "expect" to win? Even if you play with an advantage, you only win big if you play right, and these idiots are actually playing with a negative edge. Everyone's heard that "the house always wins," and some of these retards still expect to win.

By the way, who coined the term "ploppy"? It is such a stupid word. Why can't we can't we call 'em "bipeds"?

Definition:

bi?ped
noun
An animal with two feet.

My political science professor used to use that word to refer to the general voting population.

[Ouchez]

[Parker]

Ploppys are more than merely NEBs (Negative Expectation Bettors), they are by definition obnoxious.

The term was coined by gaming author Frank Scoblete in his book, Best Blackjack. Some might argue that this is his most significant contribution to the game.

He writes:

"To set the record straight, a ploppy is a moron with an attitude. A ploppy is a fool. A ploppy usually looks like what he or she usually is -- something even a cat would think twice about dragging in. Ploppys come in all shapes and sizes (often quite strange actually) and, while most of them have low IQ's, some could be bright in a technical way. I have met ploppy doctors, ploppy lawyers, ploppy teachers, ploppy politicians, ploppy book reviewers. But generally speaking, the ploppy population is at the lower end of the bell curve of intelligence, often at the lower end of this same curve in manners, comportment, fashion, and hygiene. Ploppys usually travel alone but when they travel in mated pairs they are a sight to behold and a scent to smell. No one reading this book is a ploppy because by definition, ploppys don't read books about blackjack. They have their own strategies."

There is much more -- he devotes an entire chapter to ploppys -- but you get the idea.

It is incorrect to use the term to refer to any non-advantage player at the table. Simply because a lot of people do so does not make it any less incorrect.

[pm]

I see. And it's awesome that we got a word to describe this class of "people," but "ploppy"? "PLOPPY"??!?!?

You can't seriously tell me that you'd use that word in a conversation. I'd feel like a "ploppy" myself if I said it.

You're not feeling "biped"? Ok, how about we use "biped" in lieu of Negative Expectation Bettor? It could be used to cover all morons, since "ploppy" is restricted to "morons with attitudes".

Anybody for that? Ploppy just sounds too stupid. And what else is an NEB but an animal with two feet?

[Parker]

> I see. And it's awesome that we got a word
> to describe this class of
> "people," but "ploppy"?
> "PLOPPY"??!?!?

> You can't seriously tell me that you'd use
> that word in a conversation. I'd feel like a
> "ploppy" myself if I said it.

Get a group of card counters together and you will hear it used quite frequently.

You're just running in the wrong circles. :-)

> You're not feeling "biped"? Ok,
> how about we use "biped" in lieu
> of Negative Expectation Bettor? It could be
> used to cover all morons, since
> "ploppy" is restricted to
> "morons with attitudes".

I always liked "civilian" to refer to anyone at the table who is not an advantage player or a casino employee. I first saw this in James Grosjean's Beyond Counting, although he may not have been the first to use the term in that manner.

[bfbagain]

I always liked "civilian" to refer to anyone at the table who is not an advantage player or a casino employee.

I agree. There are many "non-combatant" players at the tables who are relatively nice, but misinformed on how to play the game. They are the sacrificial lambs that allow advantage players to exist, albeit with all the scorn and acrimony that the casinos can muster.

I usually say nothing to ploppies one way or another, as I know that they're likely to have short term positive results, when they have them, and more often than not, will end up losing, and that, in and of itself, is enough pain for anyone. It allows me to ignore most people, and they're play.

Allowing your emotions to get the better of you is usually negative eV. Ask Ron Artest. I think he's going to have a bad year. Was all the negative emotion worth it? I don't think so.

cheers
bfb

[Don Schlesinger]

> The term was coined by gaming author Frank
> Scoblete in his book, Best Blackjack. Some
> might argue that this is his most
> significant contribution to the game.

"Most significant contribution"??!! You mean there are others?! I dare you to name one.

And, he couldn't even get the plural right. What other word in the English language do you know of that ends in a consonant followed by a "y" and that forms its plural simply by adding "s"? If you must use this word (and I never have and never will), it ought to be "ploppies," for cryin' out loud!

Don

[ES]

Once "Colored" was an acceptable term for an African American; consider the NAACP, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Now "Colored" is unacceptable, but "person of Color" is used primarily, if not exclusively in left-wing circles.

[Guy from the Southwest]

> If you must use this word (and I never have
> and never will), it ought to be
> "ploppies," for cryin' out loud!

> Don

Since he's a word-guy with a pretty good editorial r?sum?, it's odd he'd make a mistake like that. And clearly, it's not a contrived or stylized misspelling -- it's just an error.

A guess? I think he's done a fair amount of work in the UK, where his literary skills may have been compromised. (The Brits don't speak English very well.)

Unfortunately (as you point out), the popular adoption of his term for inept players only legitimizes his status as a blackjack "authority." And, although some might argue that one made-up noun is as good as another, it seems a strange choice. I'd probably go with "mullet" -- an old and widely understood pejorative in my part of the world, but probably regional in its appeal. Of course the exercise is subjective anyway, and the possibilities are endless.

Not that it probably matters. It'd be tough to overcome, in general usage, the years of marketing momentum behind his not-particularly-descriptive word. But, "Hey, hey, Parker . . ." (I always wanted to say that, since it reminds me of a song from college days), how 'bout a contest to pick a term that's more acceptable in this community? The winner gets, say, first-class airfare from Anywhere to McCarran, where he'll be picked up by Bettie and squired to dinner and the gambling venue of his choice.

[WallStRunoff]

> Get a group of card counters together and
> you will hear it used quite frequently.

> You're just running in the wrong circles.
> :-)

> I always liked "civilian" to refer
> to anyone at the table who is not an
> advantage player or a casino employee. I
> first saw this in James Grosjean's Beyond
> Counting, although he may not have been the
> first to use the term in that manner.

If the definition of "ploppy" is going to be a player with poor skills and a bad attitude, then what is the definition of an AP with an attitude. Food for thought.

While I am all for doing anything legal to gain an edge (even if it is at the expense of non APs) becuase this is the way life works, I'm not for gloating around with an elitest attitude becuase I'm a better player thn them. Since the basketball analogy was brought up, what would you think if NBA players had a web ring where they laughed at us for throwing up airballs in our driveway and not being able to dunk a basketball. I understand there is a difference in that we are not entertainers as they are, but they still ultimately make our trade possible. A little positive PR is at least something to think about. I would bet that Grosjean regretted his "civilian" label when the opposition likely brought that comment in front of the jury. Its just another elitest term that would make the average person lack sympathy for our cause.