euphdude: conflicting SCORE and BC/PE/IC Correlation

[euphdude]

Hey Folks,

I got my copy of BJA3. I can already tell this will be THE reference book I will refer to for years to come. I think I will follow Arnold Snyder's advice to not dive too deeply into it until I've completely mastered counting, which I sure haven't.

Anyway, I tried Fred's KISS III system in the casino and was impressed with the results when I was able to keep the count, which was ~50% of the time. I've got a long way to go before I can say that I can count reliably. However, although I've never tried KO in a casino, I can still count faster with it since I don't have to separate out the red and black 2's. You also have to fudge both systems in different ways for further optimization...you have to fudge most of your indices with the KISS at varying penetration levels whereas I've determined you need to fudge your key count at the latter stages of shoes with the KO. Plus there are many less indices to be memorized with KO for practically no loss in yield. For these reasons, I've been wavering between which of these systems to use in the long term.

To add to my confusion, my research has turned up mixed results....BJA3 seems to indicate that KO is definitely one of the weakest level 1 systems (it has the lowest SCORE). However, Norm's data on his website gave superior BC/PE/IC data for KO than either the Hi-Lo or the Red7. Norm's data was supported by data I found on the bjmath.com site.

Is it possible to have a superior BC/PE/IC and yet yield a lesser SCORE?

Thanks.

[Don Schlesinger]

> To add to my confusion, my research has
> turned up mixed results....BJA3 seems to
> indicate that KO is definitely one of the
> weakest level 1 systems (it has the lowest
> SCORE). However, Norm's data on his website
> gave superior BC/PE/IC data for KO than
> either the Hi-Lo or the Red7. Norm's data
> was supported by data I found on the
> bjmath.com site.

You want to be looking at p. 176 of BJA3. Then, decide which game you will spend most of your time playing. Then, all things being equal (ease of learning, using, etc.), choose accordingly.

> Is it possible to have a superior BC/PE/IC
> and yet yield a lesser SCORE?

If Richard's numbers on his site are correct, then yes, since the SCOREs are what they are. But, I suspect that the PE for K-O was "fudged" somewhat, because we usually don't refer to PEs for unbalanced counts.

Don

[Brick Waller]

Why(and how)is it possible for a weaker count system to have a higher score when the other count system has a higher betting,playing and insurance correlation?

[Don Schlesinger]

> Why(and how)is it possible for a weaker
> count system to have a higher score when the
> other count system has a higher
> betting,playing and insurance correlation?

The SCOREs are what they are. And they are accurate. That's why I asked if Richard's values were accurate, as I believe there is probably an error somewhere. That is, I don't believe that K-O is superior in all three areas for the SCORE comparisons that we made.

Don

[Cacarulo]

> Why(and how)is it possible for a weaker
> count system to have a higher score when the
> other count system has a higher
> betting,playing and insurance correlation?

Do not confuse KO with TKO! When we talk about PE, BC and IC we always refer to the true-counted version (TKO).
BTW, TKO is the best level-1 system around.

Sincerely,
Cacarulo

[Sun Runner]

> BTW, TKO is the best level-1 system around.

There is an endorsement from a guy who oughta know!

[Cacarulo]

> If Richard's numbers on his site are
> correct, then yes, since the SCOREs are what
> they are. But, I suspect that the PE for K-O
> was "fudged" somewhat, because we
> usually don't refer to PEs for unbalanced
> counts.

Did you mean to say PEs for systems in "RC mode"?

Sincerely,
Cac

[Don Schlesinger]

> Did you mean to say PEs for systems in
> "RC mode"?

Well, yes, sort of. I meant to say, "K-O, by definition of the authors, is used in running-count mode (otherwise, it's not K-O anymore, it's TKO!), and systems in RC mode don't have PEs."

How's that for bailing out?! :-)

Don

[Brick Waller]

Also wondering if BJRM is actually using the sims of TKO even though KO is listed as the count system, I dont remember. What I do remember is according to BJRM, KO keeps up with the best of systems(halves and rpc) when the H17 rule is applied with typical conditions. Is there any logical explanation for this? I cant think of one.

thanks,
Brick

[Cacarulo]

[Norm Wattenberger]

[Sun Runner]

> BTW, TKO is the best level-1 system around.

Would you know the TKO SCORE for SD and play-all DD?

Thanks.

[Cacarulo]

> Would you know the TKO SCORE for SD and
> play-all DD?

No, unfortunately I don't have those statistics anymore. I calculated those SCOREs a long time ago.
What I do have are the SCOREs for 6D.

Sincerely,
Cac