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Thread: zamais: Money management???

  1. #1
    zamais
    Guest

    zamais: Money management???

    Hi,everyone I need some advice after loosing a lot of money in BJ.I am not a card counter and I believe after playing for many years the most important factor in this game is money management,
    propably more than luck and card counting.
    Keeping good records I can see that on 100 day-trips my loosing ratio was 27% meaning I went home 73 times a winner.Now out of the 27 times that I lost, only 4 times I was never up during play,so 23 times I was up 3,5,8,10 etc units before I lost the profits plus my daily bankroll.I am sure many or all of you have experience similar situations.
    So if we have the discipline to win with a bankroll of 25 units lets say 3 units per day X 96=288,we will be up 188 units.What do you guys think??? I admited that I lost a lot of money but I think was mostly because of greed and luck of discipline and less of the casino edge.Let me Know what do you think and maybe some of your comments will help each other.Also I believe time is against a non-counter or even a counter if we think that only 1% of them are winners in the long run, so hit and go is probably the best way.Standard deviation and nature of the game will bring us up at a certain point during the game.If you can please share honestly your own numbers-trips win-loose so we can see if my numbers are the roule or the exemption to it.Thanks for your comments-advice.

  2. #2
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Re: Money management???

    > Hi,everyone I need some advice after loosing
    > a lot of money in BJ.I am not a card counter
    > and I believe after playing for many years
    > the most important factor in this game is
    > money management,
    > propably more than luck and card counting.

    To the card counter, luck (aka variance) is nothing more than an annoyance, so I'd have to agree with that. However, before we go any further, we have to define "money management." I would define it as being adequately bankrolled so that you can play a spread large enough to beat the game with an acceptable risk of ruin. You are using the term for some sort of stop-win, stop-loss scheme, which is totally different.

    > Keeping good records I can see that on 100
    > day-trips my loosing ratio was 27% meaning I
    > went home 73 times a winner.Now out of the
    > 27 times that I lost, only 4 times I was
    > never up during play,so 23 times I was up
    > 3,5,8,10 etc units before I lost the profits
    > plus my daily bankroll.I am sure many or all
    > of you have experience similar situations.
    > So if we have the discipline to win with a
    > bankroll of 25 units lets say 3 units per
    > day X 96=288,we will be up 188 units.What do
    > you guys think??? I admited that I lost a
    > lot of money but I think was mostly because
    > of greed and luck of discipline and less of
    > the casino edge.

    Why would you think this? You are playing a losing game, and you lost. This should not come as a surprise. It has nothing to do with greed or lack of discipline. It is what is supposed to happen - it is the casinos whole reason for existing.

    Any sort of stop-win, stop-loss plan has no effect upon the house advantage. You may change the distribution of winning sessions vs losing sessions, but the net result dollar-wise will be the same in the long run.

    > Let me Know what do you
    > think and maybe some of your comments will
    > help each other.Also I believe time is
    > against a non-counter or even a counter if
    > we think that only 1% of them are winners in
    > the long run, so hit and go is probably the
    > best way.

    Who thinks that? If a card counter is not a winner in the long run, it is because he (or she) is not playing a winning game. This is, unfortunately, true of a lot of counters. They make mistakes, are underbankrolled, give up too much in cover plays, are reluctant to shove out the big bets when the count calls for it, or (most likely) a combination of these.

    If a counter is playing a winning game, he will win in the long run. The only way to get to the long run is to put in the hours at the tables.

    > Standard deviation and nature of
    > the game will bring us up at a certain point
    > during the game.If you can please share
    > honestly your own numbers-trips win-loose so
    > we can see if my numbers are the roule or
    > the exemption to it.Thanks for your
    > comments-advice.

    It is impossible to beat the game in the manner you suggest. If you are not playing with an advantage (via card counting or some other form of advantage play), you will eventually lose all your money, regardless of any stop-loss, betting scheme, etc.

    The best that could result from a stop-win, stop-loss plan when you are not counting or using some other form of advantage play would be to lose your money more slowly. Some might consider this a good thing. I would call it "prolonging the agony."

    If you really want to beat this game, learn a counting system, practice until you can do it perfectly, put together an adequate bankroll, scout out good games, and put in the hours.

    That's it.

  3. #3
    Fuzzy Math
    Guest

    Fuzzy Math: Re: Money management???

    > To the card counter, luck (aka variance) is
    > nothing more than an annoyance, so I'd have
    > to agree with that. However, before we go
    > any further, we have to define "money
    > management." I would define it as being
    > adequately bankrolled so that you can play a
    > spread large enough to beat the game with an
    > acceptable risk of ruin. You are using the
    > term for some sort of stop-win, stop-loss
    > scheme, which is totally different.

    > Why would you think this? You are playing a
    > losing game, and you lost. This should not
    > come as a surprise. It has nothing to do
    > with greed or lack of discipline. It is what
    > is supposed to happen - it is the casinos
    > whole reason for existing.

    > Any sort of stop-win, stop-loss plan has no
    > effect upon the house advantage. You may
    > change the distribution of winning sessions
    > vs losing sessions, but the net result
    > dollar-wise will be the same in the long
    > run.

    > Who thinks that? If a card counter is not a
    > winner in the long run, it is because he (or
    > she) is not playing a winning game. This is,
    > unfortunately, true of a lot of counters.
    > They make mistakes, are underbankrolled,
    > give up too much in cover plays, are
    > reluctant to shove out the big bets when the
    > count calls for it, or (most likely) a
    > combination of these.

    > If a counter is playing a winning game, he
    > will win in the long run. The only way to
    > get to the long run is to put in the hours
    > at the tables.

    > It is impossible to beat the game in the
    > manner you suggest. If you are not playing
    > with an advantage (via card counting or some
    > other form of advantage play), you will
    > eventually lose all your money, regardless
    > of any stop-loss, betting scheme, etc.

    > The best that could result from a stop-win,
    > stop-loss plan when you are not counting or
    > using some other form of advantage play
    > would be to lose your money more slowly.
    > Some might consider this a good thing. I
    > would call it "prolonging the
    > agony."

    > If you really want to beat this game, learn
    > a counting system, practice until you can do
    > it perfectly, put together an adequate
    > bankroll, scout out good games, and put in
    > the hours.

    > That's it.

    In the big session (the $15 max bet "experiment" session doesn't count) which I played, I lost 20% of my bankroll without EVER being ahead. Sure you can stop whenever you're up $50, but consider how many of those it takes just to cancel out a single losing session of $2000.

    I recall reading the results of a computer simulation which used a somewhat popular betting progression. After thousands of simulated playing sessions, the player had only ONE losing session betting with this progression. Unfortunately, that session came to an end when the simulated player had tapped out his bankroll. He lost more in that single session than what he had won in ALL other sessions combined.

  4. #4
    Brick Waller
    Guest

    Brick Waller: Re: Money management???

    If i understand,you're saying you won 73 sessions out of a hundred(wow!)but could have won 96 sessions if you would have quit a winner.

    If is a big word. You've been extremely lucky to win 73 times out of a hundred,what more do you want, are you playng internet blackjack for play money or something? They often let you win millions when doing this.

    You say it may be possible to win 3 units every session if you quit. If I could do this every time I played at a real casino(and im a card counter) I'd be a Millionaire. It's impossible.

  5. #5
    Fuzzy Math
    Guest

    Fuzzy Math: Re: Money management???

    > If is a big word. You've been extremely
    > lucky to win 73 times out of a hundred,what
    > more do you want, are you playng internet
    > blackjack for play money or something? They
    > often let you win millions when doing this.

    I decided out of boredom to bet the table max at play money blackjack while waiting an email or something. I lost the first ten hands I played. This leads me to conclude that their play money games are not rigged in the manner that you imply. ;P

    And btw, I left out a word in my post above. It should say "In my FIRST session..."

  6. #6
    Brick Waller
    Guest

    Brick Waller: I assume you're an avid investor.

    You lost the first 10 hands in a row?,maybe the internet cheats after all.) On the other hand it must be all fair because you even lost with play money. Yeah,right.

    Internet gambling = unwise investment.

    > I decided out of boredom to bet the table
    > max at play money blackjack while waiting an
    > email or something. I lost the first ten
    > hands I played. This leads me to conclude
    > that their play money games are not rigged
    > in the manner that you imply. ;P

    > And btw, I left out a word in my post above.
    > It should say "In my FIRST
    > session..."

  7. #7
    zamais
    Guest

    zamais: Re: Money management???

    > If i understand,you're saying you won 73
    > sessions out of a hundred(wow!)but could
    > have won 96 sessions if you would have quit
    > a winner.
    The actual numbers are 710 trips won 516 lost 194,
    never up 28 out of 194.You must notice the word trips so it is not internet BJ.
    You say its impossible,it is not impossible because it happent to me,the above numbers are real and not hypothetical.
    I thought everyone of us have had on average the same numbers experience but from the reaction of this board I quess I must be the exception in the rule and not the rule.
    I would like some more people counters or not to share their real and honest numbers so we all can learn something.

  8. #8
    Aruuba
    Guest

    Aruuba: Re: I assume you're an avid investor.

    > Internet gambling = unwise investment.

    I just wondered why you felt that way.

    If playing BJ at on-line casino is not a valid subject here, I understand. From reading the posts, the board here seems strictly for counters which is, of course, not valid on the internet and, if that's the case, is perfectly OK.

    Being a closet counter, I do enjoy reading the board from time to time. But I find the Internet much more profitable.

  9. #9
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Money management???

    > I would like some more people counters or
    > not to share their real and honest numbers
    > so we all can learn something.

    There's nothing to learn from people's reports of their trip results. They are quite meaningless.
    It doesn't really matter if your results are "typical" or not. They are what they are.

    You're asking the wrong questions. Give us your precise style of play and the rules of the game you are playing, and then ask what to expect for a trip of x hours.

    Forget about others' experiences. They don't matter.

    Don

  10. #10
    Fuzzy Math
    Guest

    Fuzzy Math: Re: I assume you're an avid investor.

    > You lost the first 10 hands in a row?,maybe
    > the internet cheats after all.) On the other
    > hand it must be all fair because you even
    > lost with play money. Yeah,right.

    > Internet gambling = unwise investment.

    Well, I won money from their real money tables above and beyond my juicy deposit bonus. I actually ended up a net winner at the play money tables too, for whatever that's worth.

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