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Thread: J: "Real world" expectations of going pro?

  1. #1
    J
    Guest

    J: "Real world" expectations of going pro?

    Hi everyone,

    This is a great community and I appreciate all of the excellent discussion.

    I am seriously considering "going pro" as an advantage BJ player. I have become pretty good with a system and enjoy advantage play.

    Are there enough good games out there to make a living playing as a pro?

    Can this realistically be done with a $25 unit with a 600 unit bankroll?

    I know I can expect 5-6 unit/hour with good dealers, but realistically how much playing time can I expect?

    For those of you who have done this as your only source of income, how much travel is involved? How do you stay on top of where the good games are? How frequently do you visit the same casino? Is it worth it to play in Europe?

    The 5-6 unit/hour approximation is a nice start, but I'm curious about the "real world" of being a pro. Can I make a decent living playing green?

    Would you share any other advice for me beginning as a professional?

    Thanks for listening and thanks in advance for your advice!

    J

  2. #2
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Don't even think about it

    > Hi everyone,

    > This is a great community and I appreciate
    > all of the excellent discussion.

    > I am seriously considering "going
    > pro" as an advantage BJ player. I have
    > become pretty good with a system and enjoy
    > advantage play.

    > Are there enough good games out there to
    > make a living playing as a pro?

    There are very few "good" games. There are a lot of playable game that will require an agressive spread with little regard for cover. Expect to get tossed a lot.

    > Can this realistically be done with a $25
    > unit with a 600 unit bankroll?

    No.

    > I know I can expect 5-6 unit/hour with good
    > dealers, but realistically how much playing
    > time can I expect?

    Where on earth did you come up with this figure? A real-world win rate is more like around 2 units per hour.

    > For those of you who have done this as your
    > only source of income, how much travel is
    > involved? How do you stay on top of where
    > the good games are? How frequently do you
    > visit the same casino? Is it worth it to
    > play in Europe?

    > The 5-6 unit/hour approximation is a nice
    > start, but I'm curious about the "real
    > world" of being a pro. Can I make a
    > decent living playing green?

    No. There are some people who manage to scrape out an existance playing green, but I would not call it a "decent living."

    Also keep in mind that as a pro you are self-employed. You pay your own medical expenses, if you take time off you don't make any money, and there is no retirement fund unless you create one.

    > Would you share any other advice for me
    > beginning as a professional?

    When you're ready to turn pro, you will know it. You will not be asking questions such as these on message boards, because you will already know the answers.

    > Thanks for listening and thanks in advance
    > for your advice!

    It is possible to make a living in today's playing conditions, but it is most certainly not an easy living. The full time pros that I know personally are a unique group of rugged individualists who are exceptionally intelligent and possess a high degree of self-discipline. They would likely succeed in any endeavor they attempted, and they have my utmost respect.

    The truth is, if you have amassed the bankroll necessary to turn pro ($50K min), you probably have found an easier way to make a living.

  3. #3
    suicyco maniac
    Guest

    suicyco maniac: 5 to 6 units

    Not by counting alone!!!!! 5 to 6 units is WAY unrealistic....It is possible to do a lot better then just "scrape by" as Parker said but you have to be able to play a lot of hours a lot of promos and alot of different games. It is no peice of cake and definatly not for most people... but it can be done i know cuz I'm makin it SM

    > There are very few "good" games.
    > There are a lot of playable game that will
    > require an agressive spread with little
    > regard for cover. Expect to get tossed a
    > lot.

    > No.

    > Where on earth did you come up with this
    > figure? A real-world win rate is more like
    > around 2 units per hour.

    > No. There are some people who manage to
    > scrape out an existance playing green, but I
    > would not call it a "decent
    > living."

    > Also keep in mind that as a pro you are
    > self-employed. You pay your own medical
    > expenses, if you take time off you don't
    > make any money, and there is no retirement
    > fund unless you create one.

    > When you're ready to turn pro, you will know
    > it. You will not be asking questions such as
    > these on message boards, because you will
    > already know the answers.

    > It is possible to make a living in today's
    > playing conditions, but it is most certainly
    > not an easy living. The full time pros that
    > I know personally are a unique group of
    > rugged individualists who are exceptionally
    > intelligent and possess a high degree of
    > self-discipline. They would likely succeed
    > in any endeavor they attempted, and they
    > have my utmost respect.

    > The truth is, if you have amassed the
    > bankroll necessary to turn pro ($50K min),
    > you probably have found an easier way to
    > make a living.

  4. #4
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: But at what price?

    >.. but it can be done i know cuz I'm makin it SM

    Yeah, but look what it has done to you. :-)

  5. #5
    DD'
    Guest

    DD': Parker's right, don't even think about it

    A person ready to go pro has been a serious semi-pro for years, knows the ropes, knows the games, is familiar with the major gaming areas, knows lots of pro players, and is already aware of the risks and challenges that will be faced. The very fact that you are asking the question means that you are not ready.

  6. #6
    K
    Guest

    K: Re: "Real world" expectations of going pro?

    After reading your post, I dont think you even have the basic fundamentals of blackjack down. Thinking about going pro on your terms is no different than a ozark hillbilly thinking about becoming president. No offense,but how old are you,--have you ever even been to a casino before?

    > Hi everyone,

    > This is a great community and I appreciate
    > all of the excellent discussion.

    > I am seriously considering "going
    > pro" as an advantage BJ player. I have
    > become pretty good with a system and enjoy
    > advantage play.

    > Are there enough good games out there to
    > make a living playing as a pro?

    > Can this realistically be done with a $25
    > unit with a 600 unit bankroll?

    > I know I can expect 5-6 unit/hour with good
    > dealers, but realistically how much playing
    > time can I expect?

    > For those of you who have done this as your
    > only source of income, how much travel is
    > involved? How do you stay on top of where
    > the good games are? How frequently do you
    > visit the same casino? Is it worth it to
    > play in Europe?

    > The 5-6 unit/hour approximation is a nice
    > start, but I'm curious about the "real
    > world" of being a pro. Can I make a
    > decent living playing green?

    > Would you share any other advice for me
    > beginning as a professional?

    > Thanks for listening and thanks in advance
    > for your advice!

    > J

  7. #7
    Ouchez
    Guest

    Ouchez: Find a job, get a career,

    > Hi everyone,

    > This is a great community and I appreciate
    > all of the excellent discussion.

    > I am seriously considering "going
    > pro" as an advantage BJ player. I have
    > become pretty good with a system and enjoy
    > advantage play.

    > Are there enough good games out there to
    > make a living playing as a pro?

    > Can this realistically be done with a $25
    > unit with a 600 unit bankroll?

    > I know I can expect 5-6 unit/hour with good
    > dealers, but realistically how much playing
    > time can I expect?

    > For those of you who have done this as your
    > only source of income, how much travel is
    > involved? How do you stay on top of where
    > the good games are? How frequently do you
    > visit the same casino? Is it worth it to
    > play in Europe?

    > The 5-6 unit/hour approximation is a nice
    > start, but I'm curious about the "real
    > world" of being a pro. Can I make a
    > decent living playing green?

    > Would you share any other advice for me
    > beginning as a professional?

    > Thanks for listening and thanks in advance
    > for your advice!

    > J

    and play part time and hone those skillz. There is nothing better than having the best of both worlds. The games today get worse, not better, and they are just not that good anymore.

    When the time comes you can retire with a pension,SS, etc. and then travel around and play full time. Forget about the full time pro stuff, for the good of you and those who love you.

    Now go out and play some part time BJ!

    Regards,
    Ouchez.

  8. #8
    All-time high
    Guest

    All-time high: Re: Don't even think about it

    > Where on earth did you come up with this
    > figure? A real-world win rate is more like
    > around 2 units per hour.

    In my experience it's more like 1 unit per hour after camo is taken into account at mid green to low black levels. And this is playing time, not including the massive time lost for travelling between casinos (which is necessary).

    ATH

  9. #9
    Hal Jordan
    Guest

    Hal Jordan: Pefect Advice *NM*


  10. #10
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Win rate

    > In my experience it's more like 1 unit per
    > hour after camo is taken into account at mid
    > green to low black levels. And this is
    > playing time, not including the massive time
    > lost for travelling between casinos (which
    > is necessary).

    For the typical player you are probably correct. In order to get 2 units/hour the player must be very discriminating regarding game selection, and be willing to employ an agressive playing and betting strategy with little or nothing in the way of camo. He must also be prepared to leave the table the moment conditions deteriorate (more players join the game, new dealer giving inferior pen, etc.).

    This means that our pro will frequently be asked to take his action elsewhere (as I mentioned in my earlier post), and as you mentioned, will spend a lot of time traveling between casinos.

    A common occurance will be driving, perhaps a considerable distance, to reach a particular casino, only to leave without playing a hand after finding no playable games there. With today's gas prices, expenses can quickly accumulate.

    In today's environment, between the back-offs, the preponderance of mediocre games, and the travel between casinos, our pro is likely to have weeks with only ten hours or so of actual playing time.

  11. #11
    BJT
    Guest

    BJT: Yes and No

    I am a full time pro. I can do it, you can do it... maybe...?
    I speak of foreign experience so... lots of travellings. In fact, I spend at least 300 days at hotels. How much capital you need? Well, it depends... on your skill level and how many good places you know. I think I can make it with $15,000 with my skill level (trackings) and the knowledge I have now (11,000 hours playing, travelling to 80 cities, playing 400 casinos). I am not using $15k though, I use $400k... I doubt you can make it cause you seemed not have enough skill and information... thus bankroll.
    So... the good news is it is doable, the bad news are you can't do it under current circumstances.
    My advices?
    1. BJ card counting is an investment, $15k is way too low if you want to make, say, $50k a year. If you plan investing into stocks, how much money you need to invest to make $50k a year? $500k? BJ card counting is much safer than stock investment... how can you expect making the same amount, at lower risk, putting much much less capital in?
    2. Skill
    The better skill you have, the more places you can play and you can get more from a particular game. I played at a casino that my friend went there, won small, and left. He considered the game to be mediocre. I won over $20,000 before I was barred which is OK with me cause I don't intend going back, there are 2,000 casinos left for me to go. The difference between I and my friedn is skill. He went to 15 countries in two months, finding most games unplayable. I went to 2 countries (among his 15) after him, made several times more than he with 25% of his time. How to develop my skill level? Experience of 11,000 hours play...
    I will not teach you or help you becoming a pro like myself, no reason for me to do it. I will tell you it can be done, you decdide whether you can do it or not.

  12. #12
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: Thanks, virus alert

    Thanks for an excellent post. Those of you who have "been there, done that" can express it better than I can.

    On a completely unrelated note, I need to inform you that your computer is infected with a virus or other sort of malware.

    Your post originally included a link to a porn site at the bottom. I don't think that you intended this. :-)

    I felt that your post was sincere and worthwhile, so I left the post but deleted the link.

    I suspect that you are completely unaware of this. There is a virus going around that does exactly this sort of thing. I have seen it discussed on other message boards, and seen similar posts here. You need to install and run an anti-virus program such as Norton, McAfee, or AVG. Make sure that your virus definitions are up-to-date.

    In addition, run a spyware-removal program such as Ad-Aware or Spybot, also making sure that the definitions are up-to-date.

    If you have questions about this, feel free to post them on our "Computing for Counters" forum. This is exactly the sort of thing that it is there for.

  13. #13
    ShoelessD
    Guest

    ShoelessD: Re: Yes and No

    > I will not teach you or help you becoming a
    > pro like myself, no reason for me to do it.
    > I will tell you it can be done, you decdide
    > whether you can do it or not.
    BJT you are the player I have been waiting to see make a post. If you will be so kind as to extend your knowledge to some who are not as skillfull as yourself. My question is, how do you handle the inevetable negative variance? You say you play with 15k, but have 400k at your disposal. Allowing for comparisons to my bankroll and play, which is much less, I have a very difficult time deciding to play again after I have had a particularly bad swing. Say, losing %80 of my daily bankroll. The shallow mathematical advantage plays heavily upon my mind. Yes, indeed, I consider stocks where I am sure I can do better than the %1-%2 advatage we sometimes enjoy if we play well. Thanks for posting.

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