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Thread: Dan Pronovost: Creator of Speed Count for GTB seminars tells all!

  1. #14
    Shark
    Guest

    Shark: Basic strategy *NM*


  2. #15
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Basic strategy

    You didn't get the attempt at irony! :-)

  3. #16
    Radar
    Guest

    Radar: That he didn't ;) *NM*


  4. #17
    Shark
    Guest

    Shark: English as a foreign language

    Detecting irony and correct grammer are harder when using a foreign tongue. Excuse my ignorance. Shark

    > You didn't get the attempt at irony! :-)

  5. #18
    Dan Pronovost
    Guest

    Dan Pronovost: Re: Another CC system?

    I'll try to answer the specific questions asked of me below:

    TomT asked:
    > Is it better than K-O Rookie? Is it EASIER
    > than K-O without no indices?

    It is far easier than KO to learn. This is not subjective... SC is different, using a different mechanic of card counting. This makes it easier to master and learn.

    I've taught several test students, who do NOT gamble regularly or card count at all, how to track the 'speed count' without errors in less than 3 hours. Put a BS (basic strategy) chart in front of them, and they are playing with a positive edge, even in common eight deck.

    It does not deliver as good performance as full KO. KO performs very close (in 4+ deck games) to the same as HighLow, which we've provided the metrics already for. I'm not sure yet how it compares to KO in single and double deck, where KO does not deliver the same performance data as HL (at least in my simulations with KO).

    Dan P. wrote:
    >> From years of selling blackjack training
    >> software,
    >> I've learned that the hardest skill to
    >> master to
    >> become a proficient blackjack card counter
    >> is
    >> keeping track of the running count as cards
    >> are
    >> dealt.

    TomT asked:
    > Do you think that that is the hardest skill?

    Yes. My experience, and those of the professional blackjack instructors I work with that regularly teach AVERAGE blackjack players how to card count, agree that the hardest part of becoming a proficient card counter is tracking the run count in real time, with a modest to fast dealer with other players at the table. It's deceptively easy to think you can 'count down a deck in 30-50 seconds', but try it in realtime while playing, hours on end. The difficulty of this task is greatly coupled to the mechanics of the count system.

    > According to these percents it seems to be
    > inferior to K-O.

    Yes. SC is easier to use by far, but at a slight cost in performance. I've revealed data to common games in the original post (full win rates, SD, exp, for SC and HL).

    > What would the SCOREs be?

    I'm not going to reveal anymore data publicly than what I have... I've licensed the system out, and am not at liberty to disclose further details directly. Contact the GTB folks directly if you want more.

    DanP wrote:
    > Current card counting systems are either
    > very hard to
    > master, or too simple to provide any
    > valuable edge.

    TomT asks:
    >Which ones you consider too simple?

    Ace/10 count (or other counts that track only one or two cards), Front Count (and other systems that require extensive back-counting or yield minimal advantage bets per shoe).

    Tom T ask:
    > Ok. So knowing BS is a pre-requisite, right?

    No. We'll provide color coded palm-size summaries of the strategy. Casinos let you bring these when you play.

    Will a player who does not know BS (basic strategy) at all prior to the course walk away with perfect knowledge of our OBS for SC after the course? Maybe, but probably not. Memorizing a full BS takes 3-8 hours, IMHO, using very good software or flash cards as an aide. A dedicated student can do this in a weekend. But I advocate referring to a BS chart while playing, if a player has any hesitation.

  6. #19
    TomT
    Guest

    TomT: Thought you were not going to respond :)

    First of all, thanks for your answers. Now I have a better perspective except for some minor points which I would like to comment on.

    > It is far easier than KO to learn. This is
    > not subjective... SC is different, using a
    > different mechanic of card counting. This
    > makes it easier to master and learn.

    But I asked in particular about KO Rookie which is KO (with no indices) plus only one index (INSURANCE). How does SC compare to this?

    I agree that adding and subtracting on-the-fly could be difficult for some people but here comes my question:

    Do you have to do one or more subtractions at some point during the play? Also, it is obvious that there should be some sort of additions, isn't it?

    > I've taught several test students, who do
    > NOT gamble regularly or card count at all,
    > how to track the 'speed count' without
    > errors in less than 3 hours. Put a BS (basic
    > strategy) chart in front of them, and they
    > are playing with a positive edge, even in
    > common eight deck.

    That's interesting.

    > It does not deliver as good performance as
    > full KO. KO performs very close (in 4+ deck
    > games) to the same as HighLow, which we've
    > provided the metrics already for. I'm not
    > sure yet how it compares to KO in single and
    > double deck, where KO does not deliver the
    > same performance data as HL (at least in my
    > simulations with KO).

    I believe that KO performs better than Hi-Lo even in handheld games. Ask Norman.

    > Dan P. wrote:

    > Yes. SC is easier to use by far, but at a
    > slight cost in performance. I've revealed
    > data to common games in the original post
    > (full win rates, SD, exp, for SC and HL).

    The problem I have with this data is that the comparison that you've made seems to be not very fair. That's why I asked for the SCORE. EVs by itself don't say much.

    > I'm not going to reveal anymore data
    > publicly than what I have... I've licensed
    > the system out, and am not at liberty to
    > disclose further details directly. Contact
    > the GTB folks directly if you want more.

    Do the other folks know the SCORE of this system?

    > Ace/10 count (or other counts that track
    > only one or two cards), Front Count (and
    > other systems that require extensive
    > back-counting or yield minimal advantage
    > bets per shoe).

    Sorry, what's the difference between Ace/10 and the Front Count?

    > No. We'll provide color coded palm-size
    > summaries of the strategy. Casinos let you
    > bring these when you play.

    Great!

    > Will a player who does not know BS (basic
    > strategy) at all prior to the course walk
    > away with perfect knowledge of our OBS for
    > SC after the course? Maybe, but probably
    > not. Memorizing a full BS takes 3-8 hours,
    > IMHO, using very good software or flash
    > cards as an aide. A dedicated student can do
    > this in a weekend. But I advocate referring
    > to a BS chart while playing, if a player has
    > any hesitation.

    I see. Taking with you a BS chart does not require to memorize any play. Good idea!

    Hope you don't mind answering the above questions.

    Regards,
    TomT

  7. #20
    Dan Pronovost
    Guest

    Dan Pronovost: Re: Thought you were not going to respond :)

    TomT asks:
    > But I asked in particular about KO Rookie
    > which is KO (with no indices) plus only one
    > index (INSURANCE). How does SC compare to
    > this?

    I'll sim this, and report back. I can't promise when... but I'll respond. Direct data comparison to KO is fair to ask for, and something we have always planned on doing. ALl in good time.

    But... my own sims to date of HL versus KO have yielded reasonably similar performance metrics, which is why I've focused so far on HL. I have posted on another forum data on SC versus HL with I18 indices. Also at the BJI web site (www.bjinsider.com/speedcount.shtml).

    TomT asks:
    > I agree that adding and subtracting
    > on-the-fly could be difficult for some
    > people but here comes my question:

    > Do you have to do one or more subtractions
    > at some point during the play? Also, it is
    > obvious that there should be some sort of
    > additions, isn't it?

    I wish I could answer more on the mechanics of SC, but I can't (I've licensed it out, not good for course, etc.).

    TomT asks:
    > Sorry, what's the difference between Ace/10
    > and the Front Count?

    Sorry... meant to write Ace/5, Uston's simple Ace and five count. My mistake.

    Dan

  8. #21
    TomT
    Guest

    TomT: Thanks Dan! *NM*


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