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Thread: Dan Pronovost: Creator of Speed Count for GTB seminars tells all!

  1. #1
    Dan Pronovost
    Guest

    Dan Pronovost: Creator of Speed Count for GTB seminars tells all!


    Well, as the developer of Speed Count, I
    guess it's time I wade into the fore and
    provide some hard data about the count system.
    Many very good and fair questions have
    been asked here about the Golden Touch Blackjack
    seminars and the Speed Count card counting
    system. I'll do my best to provide the answers
    I can...

    First some background...

    I am the President of DeepNet Technologies,
    makers of a wide range of Blackjack training
    software products for Palm, Pocket PC, and Windows
    (www.HandheldBlackjack.com). DeepNet has
    been selling blackjack training software for
    four years now.

    Now, to answer some of the questions raised in this
    forum post...

    "What is Speed Count, and why is it any better than other simple count systems?"

    From years of selling blackjack training software,
    I've learned that the hardest skill to master to
    become a proficient blackjack card counter is
    keeping track of the running count as cards are
    dealt. Adding and subtracting 'on-the-fly' sounds
    easy, until you're chasing a modest to fast
    dealer at a full table! Although you may think
    you're accurately tracking the count, even small
    errors can be costly and cause the slim advantage
    you've gained to turn into a loss. If you're not
    betting properly with the advantage because you've
    tracked the count wrong, then you are most likely
    playing at a loss without knowing it.

    Speed Count was designed from scratch to remove this barrier.
    By leveraging some consistent mathematically properties unique
    to blackjack, you can have a system that only takes a
    few hours to master, virtually eliminates count errors,
    yet delivers most of the advantage possible with
    popular high-end count systems.

    Fred Renzy's Front-Count is a nice simple method, and
    you won't hear me saying anything negative about it.
    Nor of other super-simplified systems, like Uston's
    Ace-Five count.

    But all such systems are not tracking enough play information
    to provide much of an edge, if any in multi-deck games, nor have
    they been exhaustively tested in blackjack simulators across
    a wide range of games. Some sound simple, but actually require
    more mental skill to apply (like estimating the shoe penetration,
    or back-counting before playing).

    Speed Count is new, and depends on a unique and different
    mathematical property of blackjack, which is revealed in the course.
    It can't be modelled in any publicly available blackjack simulator.

    I had our (DeepNet's) professional blackjack simulator,
    Blackjack Audit, modified to support Speed Count.
    This is how Speed Count was evolved and developed.
    We have detailed and exhaustive simulation data to back up
    our claim that Speed Count works as advertised... 70%
    to 95% of the power of High-Low (without play indices). This
    actual outcome depends on the game conditions.

    As a teaser, here's some simulation data on a few games
    (exhaustive data provided in the seminars, of course):

    For an eight deck game, DAS, S17, one player:
    - win rate, avg. bet, std. dev., expecation (EV):
    - SC: 0.011111 $15.1980 4.73839 0.3655%
    - HL: 0.008621 $11.0840 3.33669 0.3889%

    For a two deck game, DAS, S17, 6 players:
    - SC: 0.009480 $10.1770 2.51615 0.4658%
    - HL: 0.013117 $12.4110 2.87117 0.5285%

    This might be greek to some folks, but those knowledgable
    in the stats of blackjack, it says Speed Count works (look at the similar
    EVs), and delivers comparable win rates. And, this data is for a
    'pre-release' version of Speed Count without insurance,
    no 'Wonging' or hand spreading! The HL comparison
    is similar, and both used no **play indices** in the data above.
    Once you add aggressive play strategies (such as wonging,
    hand spreading), Speed Count yields close to 1% expectation
    in good games, still without complicated play indices
    or other complexity.

    "Why should I spend 700 bucks on a 2-day course, instead
    of spending $20 on a good blackjack book like Wong's or Renzy's?"

    The Golden Touch Blackjack Course, the exclusive licensee of
    Speed Count, provides detailed training, including actual table
    playing time to make sure players master the system. Until now,
    no effective blackjack card counting system has been easy
    enough to learn that it could be mastered in a one or two
    day seminar.

    Our goal is to help average blackjack players become advantage
    players, rather than flood the shelves with yet another book
    about blackjack.

    If books about card-counting alone were a sufficient tool to
    become a skilled advantage player, there would be millions
    of card counters and casinos would have stopped peddling
    blackjack years ago. The ideas behind card counting are
    easy and well known... mastering the skill is not!

    I personally use High-Low, with all the play indices from
    -3 to +3. It took over 100 hours of training time, and I have
    to practice at least 4 hours before every trip. If
    I don't do this, I may well think I have an edge, but
    testing in my 'Blackjack Expert' software shows that in
    fact I'm making mistakes and playing at a loss.

    Current card counting systems are either very hard to
    master, or too simple to provide any valuable edge.

    Speed Count is a powerful system, that is trivial to learn.
    If you already know basic strategy, you can master the method
    in a few hours of practice, without committing errors.
    It's that easy, and that different.

    "What type of player would benefit from Speed Count?"

    Speed Count is for average blackjack players who have
    been leery of learning card counting, or who have tried
    already and failed. It's trivial to learn and use,
    yet delivers most of the advantage of good count systems.

    For expert players already playing a high-end system well
    without errors, Speed Count will not provide further
    advantage, but could provide good cover since the casinos
    will not be familiar with it's different characteristics
    and uniquely optimized playing strategy.

    "What does Shackleford have to say about Speed Count?"

    We are currently having some well-known blackjack
    experts comment on Speed Count. We are providing
    full details and data on the system (under non-disclosure,
    of course). Michael is in the process of reviewing
    Speed Count. We'll provide his formal comments and
    quotea once they are available.

    "Who is Henry Tamburin?"

    Henry will probably post and reply on his own, but
    I'll add a few comments here.

    Henry is one a well known blackjack expert
    and columnist, writing fantastic literature and guidance
    on gambling and blackjack for average players. He has
    30 years experience teaching card counting to players
    in courses, videos, books and seminars.

    Henry and I hooked up years ago, and quickly realized
    we shared a common view of blackjack... that the
    game is beatable, yet very few manage to do it! We both
    strive to teach more regular players to become skilled advantage
    players, through books, software, and our popular free blackjack
    e-newsletter "Blackjack Insider" (www.bjinsider.com).

    After I came up with the idea of Speed Count quite a while back,
    Henry colaberated with me and helped evolve the system into the
    precision card counting system that it is today.

    "What is the REAL cost for the GTB course?"

    I'm just the creator of the system, not the marketing company!
    But I can say that all Blackjack Insider subscribers can
    sign up for $695, for a limited time. Note also that Blackjack
    Insider is a free e-newsletter, so there are no tricks attached
    to this deal! Just call the GTB order line (1-866-WIN-BJ21)
    to sign-up for the course, and mention you are Blackjack
    Insider subscriber.

    You can subscribe to BJI at: www.bjinsider.com

    "What about the Optimal Basic Strategy in Speed Count?"

    Speed Count does not use play indices, but instead uses
    a fully optimized set of basic strategy tables that delivers
    the greatest possible player advantage. Hal Marcus, maker of
    the Blackjack 6-7-8 Strategy Cards, hit on this novel idea
    for card counters who don't use play indices. This approach
    is highly dependent on the count system and characteristics
    (such as bet spread), and the Optimal Basic Strategy (OBS)
    for Speed Count is unique and exhaustively tested for
    maximum player advantage.

    Mastering the skill of tracking a complicated plus/minus
    running count is bad enough, but adding play indices pushes
    today's card counting systems into the league of elite
    and devoted trainees. Sped Count replaces play indices with
    an amazing OBS that is simple to learn, yet delivers
    incredible performance.



  2. #2
    Ouchez
    Guest

    Ouchez: Dan, thanks for the explanation

    > Hello folks:

    > Well, as the developer of Speed Count, I
    > guess it's time I wade into the fore and
    > provide some hard data about the count
    > system.
    > Many very good and fair questions have
    > been asked here about the Golden Touch
    > Blackjack
    > seminars and the Speed Count card counting
    > system. I'll do my best to provide the
    > answers
    > I can...

    > First some background...

    > I am the President of DeepNet Technologies,
    > makers of a wide range of Blackjack training
    > software products for Palm, Pocket PC, and
    > Windows
    > (www.HandheldBlackjack.com). DeepNet has
    > been selling blackjack training software for
    > four years now.

    > Now, to answer some of the questions raised
    > in this
    > forum post...

    > "What is Speed Count, and why is it any
    > better than other simple count
    > systems?"

    > From years of selling blackjack training
    > software,
    > I've learned that the hardest skill to
    > master to
    > become a proficient blackjack card counter
    > is
    > keeping track of the running count as cards
    > are
    > dealt. Adding and subtracting 'on-the-fly'
    > sounds
    > easy, until you're chasing a modest to fast
    > dealer at a full table! Although you may
    > think
    > you're accurately tracking the count, even
    > small
    > errors can be costly and cause the slim
    > advantage
    > you've gained to turn into a loss. If you're
    > not
    > betting properly with the advantage because
    > you've
    > tracked the count wrong, then you are most
    > likely
    > playing at a loss without knowing it.

    > Speed Count was designed from scratch to
    > remove this barrier.
    > By leveraging some consistent mathematically
    > properties unique
    > to blackjack, you can have a system that
    > only takes a
    > few hours to master, virtually eliminates
    > count errors,
    > yet delivers most of the advantage possible
    > with
    > popular high-end count systems.

    > Fred Renzy's Front-Count is a nice simple
    > method, and
    > you won't hear me saying anything negative
    > about it.
    > Nor of other super-simplified systems, like
    > Uston's
    > Ace-Five count.

    > But all such systems are not tracking enough
    > play information
    > to provide much of an edge, if any in
    > multi-deck games, nor have
    > they been exhaustively tested in blackjack
    > simulators across
    > a wide range of games. Some sound simple,
    > but actually require
    > more mental skill to apply (like estimating
    > the shoe penetration,
    > or back-counting before playing).

    > Speed Count is new, and depends on a unique
    > and different
    > mathematical property of blackjack, which is
    > revealed in the course.
    > It can't be modelled in any publicly
    > available blackjack simulator.

    > I had our (DeepNet's) professional blackjack
    > simulator,
    > Blackjack Audit, modified to support Speed
    > Count.
    > This is how Speed Count was evolved and
    > developed.
    > We have detailed and exhaustive simulation
    > data to back up
    > our claim that Speed Count works as
    > advertised... 70%
    > to 95% of the power of High-Low (without
    > play indices). This
    > actual outcome depends on the game
    > conditions.

    > As a teaser, here's some simulation data on
    > a few games
    > (exhaustive data provided in the seminars,
    > of course):

    > For an eight deck game, DAS, S17, one
    > player:
    > - win rate, avg. bet, std. dev., expecation
    > (EV):
    > - SC: 0.011111 $15.1980 4.73839 0.3655%
    > - HL: 0.008621 $11.0840 3.33669 0.3889%

    > For a two deck game, DAS, S17, 6 players:
    > - SC: 0.009480 $10.1770 2.51615 0.4658%
    > - HL: 0.013117 $12.4110 2.87117 0.5285%

    > This might be greek to some folks, but those
    > knowledgable
    > in the stats of blackjack, it says Speed
    > Count works (look at the similar
    > EVs), and delivers comparable win rates.
    > And, this data is for a
    > 'pre-release' version of Speed Count without
    > insurance,
    > no 'Wonging' or hand spreading! The HL
    > comparison
    > is similar, and both used no **play
    > indices** in the data above.
    > Once you add aggressive play strategies
    > (such as wonging,
    > hand spreading), Speed Count yields close to
    > 1% expectation
    > in good games, still without complicated
    > play indices
    > or other complexity.

    > "Why should I spend 700 bucks on a
    > 2-day course, instead
    > of spending $20 on a good blackjack book
    > like Wong's or Renzy's?"

    > The Golden Touch Blackjack Course, the
    > exclusive licensee of
    > Speed Count, provides detailed training,
    > including actual table
    > playing time to make sure players master the
    > system. Until now,
    > no effective blackjack card counting system
    > has been easy
    > enough to learn that it could be mastered in
    > a one or two
    > day seminar.

    > Our goal is to help average blackjack
    > players become advantage
    > players, rather than flood the shelves with
    > yet another book
    > about blackjack.

    > If books about card-counting alone were a
    > sufficient tool to
    > become a skilled advantage player, there
    > would be millions
    > of card counters and casinos would have
    > stopped peddling
    > blackjack years ago. The ideas behind card
    > counting are
    > easy and well known... mastering the skill
    > is not!

    > I personally use High-Low, with all the play
    > indices from
    > -3 to +3. It took over 100 hours of training
    > time, and I have
    > to practice at least 4 hours before every
    > trip. If
    > I don't do this, I may well think I have an
    > edge, but
    > testing in my 'Blackjack Expert' software
    > shows that in
    > fact I'm making mistakes and playing at a
    > loss.

    > Current card counting systems are either
    > very hard to
    > master, or too simple to provide any
    > valuable edge.

    > Speed Count is a powerful system, that is
    > trivial to learn.
    > If you already know basic strategy, you can
    > master the method
    > in a few hours of practice, without
    > committing errors.
    > It's that easy, and that different.

    > "What type of player would benefit from
    > Speed Count?"

    > Speed Count is for average blackjack players
    > who have
    > been leery of learning card counting, or who
    > have tried
    > already and failed. It's trivial to learn
    > and use,
    > yet delivers most of the advantage of good
    > count systems.

    > For expert players already playing a
    > high-end system well
    > without errors, Speed Count will not provide
    > further
    > advantage, but could provide good cover
    > since the casinos
    > will not be familiar with it's different
    > characteristics
    > and uniquely optimized playing strategy.

    > "What does Shackleford have to say
    > about Speed Count?"

    > We are currently having some well-known
    > blackjack
    > experts comment on Speed Count. We are
    > providing
    > full details and data on the system (under
    > non-disclosure,
    > of course). Michael is in the process of
    > reviewing
    > Speed Count. We'll provide his formal
    > comments and
    > quotea once they are available.

    > "Who is Henry Tamburin?"

    > Henry will probably post and reply on his
    > own, but
    > I'll add a few comments here.

    > Henry is one a well known blackjack expert
    > and columnist, writing fantastic literature
    > and guidance
    > on gambling and blackjack for average
    > players. He has
    > 30 years experience teaching card counting
    > to players
    > in courses, videos, books and seminars.

    > Henry and I hooked up years ago, and quickly
    > realized
    > we shared a common view of blackjack... that
    > the
    > game is beatable, yet very few manage to do
    > it! We both
    > strive to teach more regular players to
    > become skilled advantage
    > players, through books, software, and our
    > popular free blackjack
    > e-newsletter "Blackjack Insider"
    > (www.bjinsider.com).

    > After I came up with the idea of Speed Count
    > quite a while back,
    > Henry colaberated with me and helped evolve
    > the system into the
    > precision card counting system that it is
    > today.

    > "What is the REAL cost for the GTB
    > course?"

    > I'm just the creator of the system, not the
    > marketing company!
    > But I can say that all Blackjack Insider
    > subscribers can
    > sign up for $695, for a limited time. Note
    > also that Blackjack
    > Insider is a free e-newsletter, so there are
    > no tricks attached
    > to this deal! Just call the GTB order line
    > (1-866-WIN-BJ21)
    > to sign-up for the course, and mention you
    > are Blackjack
    > Insider subscriber.

    > You can subscribe to BJI at:
    > www.bjinsider.com

    > "What about the Optimal Basic Strategy
    > in Speed Count?"

    > Speed Count does not use play indices, but
    > instead uses
    > a fully optimized set of basic strategy
    > tables that delivers
    > the greatest possible player advantage. Hal
    > Marcus, maker of
    > the Blackjack 6-7-8 Strategy Cards, hit on
    > this novel idea
    > for card counters who don't use play
    > indices. This approach
    > is highly dependent on the count system and
    > characteristics
    > (such as bet spread), and the Optimal Basic
    > Strategy (OBS)
    > for Speed Count is unique and exhaustively
    > tested for
    > maximum player advantage.

    > Mastering the skill of tracking a
    > complicated plus/minus
    > running count is bad enough, but adding play
    > indices pushes
    > today's card counting systems into the
    > league of elite
    > and devoted trainees. Sped Count replaces
    > play indices with
    > an amazing OBS that is simple to learn, yet
    > delivers
    > incredible performance.

    I am sure you gents have the best of intentions and I know Hank is a straight up guy so you may have something here, or you may not. I cannot fault you for marketing the system and if players want to sign up and try it more power to you and to them.

    As for indice play and keeping running and true counts I think these are the meat and potatoes of advantage play. I also think you get out of the play what you put into it and if you are looking for a shortcut, you will probably find yourself.....cut short.

    Good luck to you and the crew.

    Regards,
    Ouchez.


  3. #3
    chgobjpro
    Guest

    chgobjpro: Don's comments please [NT]

    NT

  4. #4
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Ask and you shall receive!

    Props to you Parker for letting this post through. It seems to me about 3 parts ad to 1 part info .. but I did ask.

    The difficulty for me will be in the same thing I find difficult with (and I'm not comparing the two) guys like Patterson.

    "Trust me, I've done the math and it works" is hard for me to accept.

    I guess if Shackleford is doing a work up on it, his review will be reliable? Correct?

  5. #5
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Don's comments please

    As I'm knee-deep in BJA3, all of this comes like a bolt out of the blue to me. I've just exchanged e-mails with Parker and several of the Masters. We may have more to say on the topic in a while, but that will depend on the system developers.

    While making no comment on the product, I can tell you that I have recently worked with Dan on a portion of a chapter in BJA3, and I have known Henry for many years. They are honest, stand-up guys, however I make no endorsement of the system, about which I know only what is written above, at the moment.

    Don

  6. #6
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Uh Oh!!!

    If you go to the Golden Touch Blackjack site (http://www.goldentouchblackjack.com/) you will see the GTB ad. But, look at the webpage title in the Windows blue bar. The title of the page is Golden Touch Craps.

  7. #7
    Dan Pronovost
    Guest

    Dan Pronovost: Re: Uh Oh!!!

    > If you go to the Golden Touch Blackjack site
    > (http://www.goldentouchblackjack.com/) you
    > will see the GTB ad. But, look at the
    > webpage title in the Windows blue bar. The
    > title of the page is Golden Touch Craps .

    The craps and blackjack courses are completely separate... there is no overlap. The title is a web goof, which I'll bring to the GTB folks' attention.

    The GT Blackjack Course is marketed and promoted by the same folks doing the GT craps... they are very good at organizing and promoting seminars. Is there a problem with this Norm? Something I'm not aware of?

    Dan

  8. #8
    Jim Dice
    Guest

    Jim Dice: Re: Uh Oh!!!

    Obviously, Golden Touch Blackjack and Golden Touch Craps are both being done with Frank Scoblete, and Dom LoRiggio, who run the Golden Touch franchise -- if that's the right word. I took the Golden Touch Craps course last March in Tunica and it was excellent. I wrote about these experiences on the BJ21 Board in a discussion of controlled shooting.

    I believe that some other famous writers such as Jean Scott, Don Catlin, and John Grochouski have also taken the craps course or have played with Frank and company extensively in the casinos.

    I think for the average player, the GTB course will give them a big boost into the advantage area. As I said in a previous post, if a player has been successful with other counts and is a real advantage player as the people on this board seem to be then I don't think it would be wise to change. But if they have come up with something simpler that gives that 75% to 95% of the High Low return, it will be a very good thing for them to take this course.

  9. #9
    Garry Baldy
    Guest

    Garry Baldy: Re: Uh Oh!!!

    First, I personally don't like ads sayng something like this: "If you could, with very little effort in just two days with relatively low expense, get a valid, verifiable mathematical edge over the game would you be interested?"

    Sure, the system maybe good and valid but such wording makes me sarcastic, to speak at least. I wouldn't go into details but this sentense looks like nonsense to me.

    Second, I somehow strongly suspect that this SPEED count will looks just like QWIK count (aka Instant count) coined some time ago at bjmath.com. Maybe with some true-edging. This is good count indeed for the novices.

    Anyway I think it's too expensive to charge $700 for 2 days.

    Luck.

    Garry Baldy.

  10. #10
    TomT
    Guest

    TomT: Another CC system?

    > "What is Speed Count, and why is it any
    > better than other simple count
    > systems?"

    Please Dan, answer these two questions:

    Is it better than K-O Rookie? Is it EASIER than K-O without no indices?

    > From years of selling blackjack training
    > software,
    > I've learned that the hardest skill to
    > master to
    > become a proficient blackjack card counter
    > is
    > keeping track of the running count as cards
    > are
    > dealt.

    Do you think that that is the hardest skill?

    > 70%
    > to 95% of the power of High-Low (without
    > play indices). This
    > actual outcome depends on the game
    > conditions.

    According to these percents it seems to be inferior to K-O.

    > For an eight deck game, DAS, S17, one
    > player:
    > - win rate, avg. bet, std. dev., expecation
    > (EV):
    > - SC: 0.011111 $15.1980 4.73839 0.3655%
    > - HL: 0.008621 $11.0840 3.33669 0.3889%

    > For a two deck game, DAS, S17, 6 players:
    > - SC: 0.009480 $10.1770 2.51615 0.4658%
    > - HL: 0.013117 $12.4110 2.87117 0.5285%

    What would the SCOREs be?

    > This might be greek to some folks, but those
    > knowledgable
    > in the stats of blackjack, it says Speed
    > Count works (look at the similar
    > EVs), and delivers comparable win rates.
    > And, this data is for a
    > 'pre-release' version of Speed Count without
    > insurance,
    > no 'Wonging' or hand spreading! The HL
    > comparison
    > is similar, and both used no **play
    > indices** in the data above.
    > Once you add aggressive play strategies
    > (such as wonging,
    > hand spreading), Speed Count yields close to
    > 1% expectation
    > in good games, still without complicated
    > play indices
    > or other complexity.

    Again, what are the SCOREs if we add these aggressive strategies?

    > "Why should I spend 700 bucks on a
    > 2-day course, instead
    > of spending $20 on a good blackjack book
    > like Wong's or Renzy's?"

    I can spend that money but first I need to know the answers to the above questions. Fair?

    > Current card counting systems are either
    > very hard to
    > master, or too simple to provide any
    > valuable edge.

    Which ones you consider too simple?

    > Speed Count is a powerful system, that is
    > trivial to learn.
    > If you already know basic strategy, you can
    > master the method
    > in a few hours of practice, without
    > committing errors.

    Ok. So knowing BS is a pre-requisite, right?

    Thanks for your responses in advance.

    Regards,
    TomT

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