DJ BJ: Continuous Shuffle Machines >:(

[DJ BJ]

if a casino was to offer decent rules (e.g. S17, DAS, D9,10,11 and no surrender)and it introduced a Continuous Shuffle Machine, how would that affect the win rate of a card counter, with correct (near optimum) betting and deviating from basic strategy?

[Parker]

> if a casino was to offer decent rules (e.g.
> S17, DAS, D9,10,11 and no surrender)and it
> introduced a Continuous Shuffle Machine, how
> would that affect the win rate of a card
> counter, with correct (near optimum) betting
> and deviating from basic strategy?

Um, how do you intend to count it? A typical CSM uses 4 or 5 decks. The dealer normally returns the discards to the CSM at the end of each round. So, every round is "off the top" just as if the dealer were shuffling the cards after every round.

As a result, card counting is ineffective, which is one of the reasons casinos like these things.

Also, I would not call "D9, 10, 11 and no surrender" decent rules. I would say those rules suck.

There has been some discussion of "latency" in CSM's, that is, that the discards are not immediately mixed back into pack. In addition, it may be possible to find a lazy dealer that does not return the discards to the machine after every round. Still, the effect at best would be similar to playing a 4 or 5 deck shoe with 1 deck (at most) penetration, and it is unlikely that the house edge could be overcome by counting alone, expecially with those rules.

[Ed Tice]

You didn't say how many decks of cards are in play, but as far as I know, most CSMs are loaded with 4-6 decks. Given that, the rules that you describe are far from decent. In fact, I would say that they kind of suck.

Beating a CSM is a tough proposition and is reserved for an elite group of which I am no member.

If you want to take a crack at beating a CSM game (I've tried it myself unsuccessfully, but lost only $100) look for one that at least offers you decent rules.

Add DA2 and ES10 and the above becomes an acceptable game. If you can get full ESR then you dont need to count to win.

Casinos that use CSMs are generally just greedy places that want to soak some poor tourists and are less concerned with having regular clients.

If you can find a decent CSM game (4D DAS RSA ES10 DA2) you are only starting with a 0.2% - 0.3% disadvantage. A lot of the burn joints using these machines also have nine or ten spots on the table. If you can sit at third base, you'll see about 25 cards or so before you play.

Before even trying a CSM game make sure you know all of your indices from -2 - +2 and can play them perfectly.

Indices alone wont bring you even in the above game, but they will get you close.

In shops like this that cater to tourists you can probably pick up on some hand interaction as well, so that even if your CSM counting experiment goes bad, you might still be playing an even game.

Also dealers at CSM games draw lousy tokes. This means that CSM shops dont have as much choice with what dealers they hire. You might be better off taking advantage of this.

Hole carding will get you far in this situation. Of course with ENHC this is out too (plus it takes 10 basis points away from you off the top)

But maybe you can still profit from dealer payout errors.

Before trying any CSM play though, build up a big bankroll of the casino's money from playing against hand-shuffled games. Then go back to playing red chips against the CSM until you are sure that you are playing a winning game.

Best of luck.

Ed

> if a casino was to offer decent rules (e.g.
> S17, DAS, D9,10,11 and no surrender)and it
> introduced a Continuous Shuffle Machine, how
> would that affect the win rate of a card
> counter, with correct (near optimum) betting
> and deviating from basic strategy?

[DJ BJ]

thanks for the advice regarding CSM. for the record, i'm from Australia, and so those horrible rules i called 'decent' are comparitive (because australia rules are really harsh!).

but that aside, if i were to visit USA some times in the next few, where would be the last places to adopt CSM? i wouldnt know whether to aim for vegas and AC, or stick to quieter joints like St Louis. would the big casino meccas be more likely to get away with the changes, or the smaller less-known ones? i'm guessing boycott would be the only obstacle to CSM introduction.

so stick to the big famous casino places, or the obscure ones?

[Parker]

> thanks for the advice regarding CSM. for the
> record, i'm from Australia, and so those
> horrible rules i called 'decent' are
> comparitive (because australia rules are
> really harsh!).

> but that aside, if i were to visit USA some
> times in the next few, where would be the
> last places to adopt CSM? i wouldnt know
> whether to aim for vegas and AC, or stick to
> quieter joints like St Louis. would the big
> casino meccas be more likely to get away
> with the changes, or the smaller less-known
> ones? i'm guessing boycott would be the only
> obstacle to CSM introduction.

> so stick to the big famous casino places, or
> the obscure ones?

It is hard to make any generalities. The big Las Vegas casinos often have many CSM's, but they are usually only on the lower limit tables. The smaller casinos are less likely to have them, partly because of the expense, and partly because locals don't like them.

There are no CSM's in Atlantic City, and I don't recall any in Tunica, MS.

Only a few casinos, usually in isolated areas, are entirely CSM.

[John Lewis]

If you can travel to any place in the U.S. to play, Las Vegas is the obvious choice. It's in its own league. No other place compares.

[Ed Tice]

It used to be that only in Las Vegas could you find 6:5 BJ and CSMs. Now they are spreading all over.

If you are traveling from Australia in order to play BJ I highly recommend that you go to Eastern Europe. You will find much better conditions for playing and your daily expenses will be lower.

Based on your question, I assume that you are playing red or green. Since I'm a pure red chipper you shoudl ignore me if you are playing black.

But for red chippers and even green chippers Eastern Europe is the place to be. You will find tables that are the equivalent of $3 US minimums with around $60 maximums (perfect for red chip play). There will be somewhat higher limits as well. Some green chippers may bump up against them, but otherwise it is a paradise.

You will find decent hotels for $30/night, rooms for $10 if you are on a low budget. Food will feel like its free, even if its not comped. And the rules put Las Vegas to shame.

The standard game is 6D DAS RSA ENHC ES10 with at least five decks dealt out. So you are looking at about 0.2 - 0.3% house edge off the top. You can generally find non-crowded conditions with room to spread to multiple hands. You will take heat but who cares if you get barred.

No matter where you go, you will incur expenses, so you will partly be transferring money from the casino to the local economy. Do it in Vegas and it doesn't make a difference. Do that in Eastern Europe where people live on $200/month and you can really feel good about what you are doing.

You will see posts on here asking what advantage play really does to contribute to society. Well if you do it the right part of the world, just paying your food/hotel/taxi expenses there is contributing quite a bit.

I encourage ploppies to skip AC/Tunica/Vegas and go to Eastern Europe as well. Hopefully somebody in these markets will get the message: drop the lousy rules and give us good gambling or somebody else will.

Sorry if this is a rant.

Ed

> If you can travel to any place in the U.S.
> to play, Las Vegas is the obvious choice.
> It's in its own league. No other place
> compares.

[methodman]

[Shark]

I mostly agree with your post. however, where do you find in East Europe ES10 with AT LEAST 5 DECKS DEALT out.

You left that info out of your latest trip reports.

If you feel this info should not be posted on a public board, please email me privately. I might have info to trade. Shark

> you find 6:5 BJ and CSMs. Now they are
> spreading all over.

> If you are traveling from Australia in order
> to play BJ I highly recommend that you go to
> Eastern Europe. You will find much better
> conditions for playing and your daily
> expenses will be lower.

> Based on your question, I assume that you
> are playing red or green. Since I'm a pure
> red chipper you shoudl ignore me if you are
> playing black.

> But for red chippers and even green chippers
> Eastern Europe is the place to be. You will
> find tables that are the equivalent of $3 US
> minimums with around $60 maximums (perfect
> for red chip play). There will be somewhat
> higher limits as well. Some green chippers
> may bump up against them, but otherwise it
> is a paradise.

> You will find decent hotels for $30/night,
> rooms for $10 if you are on a low budget.
> Food will feel like its free, even if its
> not comped. And the rules put Las Vegas to
> shame.

> The standard game is 6D DAS RSA ENHC ES10
> with at least five decks dealt out. So you
> are looking at about 0.2 - 0.3% house edge
> off the top. You can generally find
> non-crowded conditions with room to spread
> to multiple hands. You will take heat but
> who cares if you get barred.

> No matter where you go, you will incur
> expenses, so you will partly be transferring
> money from the casino to the local economy.
> Do it in Vegas and it doesn't make a
> difference. Do that in Eastern Europe where
> people live on $200/month and you can really
> feel good about what you are doing.

> You will see posts on here asking what
> advantage play really does to contribute to
> society. Well if you do it the right part of
> the world, just paying your food/hotel/taxi
> expenses there is contributing quite a bit.

> I encourage ploppies to skip AC/Tunica/Vegas
> and go to Eastern Europe as well. Hopefully
> somebody in these markets will get the
> message: drop the lousy rules and give us
> good gambling or somebody else will.

> Sorry if this is a rant.

> Ed

[Fragmaster]

In Eastern Europe I have found only two penetration levels. Either 3.5/6 or 5/6. Joints that exhibit paranoid fear of counters have the 3.5/6 penetration. Those who want to increase HPH have 5/6. I have always been able to find 5/6 penetration games. In fact I've even posted casino conditions in certain places on the "international scene" board including penetration and listed some 5/6 games.
Even at 4/6 with ES10 you are probably no worse off than a 5/6 game without it.

Ed

> I mostly agree with your post. however,
> where do you find in East Europe ES10 with
> AT LEAST 5 DECKS DEALT out.

> You left that info out of your latest trip
> reports.

> If you feel this info should not be posted
> on a public board, please email me
> privately. I might have info to trade. Shark