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Thread: Mark: Tell me about clumping

  1. #1
    Mark
    Guest

    Mark: Tell me about clumping

    I posted a thread on the internation scene about cheating in the Czec Republic.
    I thought that it might was be done by clumping the high (7-10) and low (A-6) together in the suffle somehow. This is only an idea. I'm not sure if it is real.

    I have noticed from reading other posts that there is heavy scepticism about clumping having any effect on blackjack. Aparently there is a couple of bogus systems for sale that revolve around this concept.

    Anyway, can anybody explain to my why I shouldn't be worried about clumping.

    As I see it if somebody deliberatly stacked a shoe so that the low cards are all in big groups then I would always be doubling down against the dealers low card with no chance of getting a high card and the dealer could not possibly break the low card he was showing.

    In a high clump there would just be a lot of pushes.

    Blackjack could only happen when I got the ace from the end of a low clump and then the ten from the begining of a high one.

    So whats the story with clumping ?

  2. #2
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Skepticism isn't the word


    Outright, and legitimate, hostility is more accurate. Several exhaustive studies have shown clumping as a non-factor. Yet outrageous prices are still charged for clumping crap. I?m not saying that it is impossible for a casino to cheat you with some form of card manipulation. Long ago, LVClub had two discard trays. Clearly a trained dealer could seriously mess with randomness in this circumstance. But it was an aberration. There is no point to clumping discussions.




  3. #3
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Re: Skepticism isn't the word

    > Outright, and legitimate, hostility is more
    > accurate. Several exhaustive studies have
    > shown clumping as a non-factor.

    Of course that's true in random shuffles.

    But this guy was wondering about cheating in the Czec Republic and wondering if intentional card clumping on the part of the casino dealer could be part to blame.

    And of course it could be much to blame.


  4. #4
    Parker
    Guest

    Parker: One more word

    > Of course that's true in random shuffles.

    And non-random shuffles as well, providing that the lack of randomness is simply due to an inadequate shuffle procedure, and not a deliberate attempt by the dealer to arrange the cards in a certain manner, presumably favoring the house.

    This was the crux of the whole card clumping nonsense, that if the shuffle was not sufficiently lengthy and complex enough to totally randomize the cards, they would somehow clump together to create a "table bias" favoring the player or the house that would last through several subsequent shuffles.

    This, of course, is complete nonsense.

    > But this guy was wondering about cheating in
    > the Czec Republic and wondering if
    > intentional card clumping on the part of the
    > casino dealer could be part to blame.

    > And of course it could be much to blame.

    Indeed. A skilled card manipulator (I hate to call such a person a mere dealer; such skills take years to master) can pretty much arrange the cards in any manner they wish, and the player will likely see nothing amiss.

    This would be "stacking the deck" though, not card clumping.

    Perhaps we merely have a semantics difficulty.

  5. #5
    Brick
    Guest

    Brick: Two more words.

    The dealer dont have to stack a deck to cheat the player in blackjack.

    When gambling in a far away country, it's best to pay attention. If they can drag an elephant across the table....they just might.

    > Of course that's true in random shuffles.

    > But this guy was wondering about cheating in
    > the Czec Republic and wondering if
    > intentional card clumping on the part of the
    > casino dealer could be part to blame.

    > And of course it could be much to blame.

  6. #6
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Agreed

    > This would be "stacking the deck"
    > though, not card clumping. Perhaps we merely have a semantics difficulty.

    We don't have a semantics difficulty; only I do. :]

    The learning curve is indeed steep and slippery!


  7. #7
    Boris
    Guest

    Boris: Re: One more word

    Sorry but I trust only the mathematics,

    2 Questions:
    1)Can anybody clumping situation simulate on computer? 6 Decks - for example 6 clumps: Ase to 5, 8 to 10, 6 to 7, Ase to 5, 8 to 10, 6 to 7. Player use f.e. Hi/lo with spread 1-12.

    2)Who of you pros plays 6 Decks? Nobody? I think that this problem is here more topical.

    tx

  8. #8
    Geoff Hall
    Guest

    Geoff Hall: Re: Tell me about clumping


    > I posted a thread on the internation scene
    > about cheating in the Czec Republic.
    > I thought that it might was be done by
    > clumping the high (7-10) and low (A-6)
    > together in the suffle somehow. This is only
    > an idea. I'm not sure if it is real.

    > I have noticed from reading other posts that
    > there is heavy scepticism about clumping
    > having any effect on blackjack. Aparently
    > there is a couple of bogus systems for sale
    > that revolve around this concept.

    > Anyway, can anybody explain to my why I
    > shouldn't be worried about clumping.

    > As I see it if somebody deliberatly stacked
    > a shoe so that the low cards are all in big
    > groups then I would always be doubling down
    > against the dealers low card with no chance
    > of getting a high card and the dealer could
    > not possibly break the low card he was
    > showing.

    > In a high clump there would just be a lot of
    > pushes.

    > Blackjack could only happen when I got the
    > ace from the end of a low clump and then the
    > ten from the begining of a high one.

    > So whats the story with clumping ?

    Take a look at the link below which provides some interesting simulations.

    Best regards

    Geoff




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