Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 27 to 39 of 53

Thread: Buick Riviera: Internet Gambling Conviction Upheld (no BJ)

  1. #27
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: OK then

    > I agree with the first 2 statements, the
    > third is wrong. More often than not hedgers
    > are the sellers of options and speculators
    > are the buyers. option sellers are usually
    > betting nothing will happen, buyers are
    > betting something will happen. There is
    > always a buyer and a seller, both sides
    > thinking the transaction is to their
    > advantage.

    Thank you for explaining this to me. :-)

    The number one use of all put options is to hedge existing stock or portfolio holdings. The hedgers BUY those puts, they don't sell them.

    Don

  2. #28
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Now ..

    .. if you want to get into stock manipulation, the good old boys club, insider trading etc., that's another story. Those people should go straight to jail and not pass go; of course, most don't.

    Still don't make my buying a marketable security tantamount to playing BJ.

    Duh, lately BJ ROR has been superior!!

    SR

  3. #29
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: What is an investment? What is 'tangible?'

    > But again, I say, there is a huge
    > difference.

    > At the end of the day, if a trader has to
    > hold his position, he is holding a tangible
    > asset. It may go up, it may go down, it may
    > do nothing. But he is holding value of some
    > degree.

    > You place your bet and you are holding an
    > intangible opportunity only.

    Not if he is short-selling. For that matter, a BJ bet is every much an investment as putting your money into a checking account in one of the thousands of banks with no insurance or buying a corporate bond. They are all bets and they are all investments and none holds anything 'tangible' other than the value of the bet itself. Also, there is a reason that the Insurance bet is called Insurance. Like real Insurance, both are side bets.

  4. #30
    Moose
    Guest

    Moose: Re: A more appropriate example then:

    > I've said this a thousand times at seminars: it's easy to blame the product or the instrument, when, through ignorance, you misuse it and get in trouble -- but that's not the fault of the product!

    or, the "It's not the pants that make you look fat" principle, as my friend calls it

    > If you have a bad headache, and you take two
    aspirins, chances are you'll feel better in a little while; however, if you swallow the whole bottle, you might die -- but that's not the fault of the aspirin!!

    Let's say heroin had some very legitimate medical purposes (don't know if it does). Then, even though it could legitimately be called a pharmaceutical, based on the way virtually all the average idiots would use it, one would have no choice but to classify it with other toxic drugs.

    If it's patently obvious that internet trading is used by 99.9% of the population as a means of gambling, it seems plain wrong not to put it on par.

    Sure, there are advantage players who are beating the stock market, just like there are advantage players beating the internet bonuses - but they are in the tiny minority, to be sure.

    > I'm sorry, Moose, I've been involved with both for well over 30 years, and while there are some similarities, it just isn't fair or correct to imply that one is "enlightened" for thinking that they're both the same.

    Well, I was being a bit fatuous of course, but seriously, the way the average person uses them, as a get-rich-quick scheme at a game of "skill", they are indecipherable. One does not imagine someone sitting down with their $5k christmas bonus and saying "Oh my, how shall I stimulate the economy today?" when they log onto etrade.com

    M.

  5. #31
    Rich Tautenhahn
    Guest

    Rich Tautenhahn: Re: OK then

    > Thank you for explaining this to me. :-)

    > The number one use of all put options is to
    > hedge existing stock or portfolio holdings.
    > The hedgers BUY those puts, they don't sell
    > them.

    > Don
    Of course you're right about put buyers using puts for insurance sometimes, and of course the sellers often are trying to generate income. After re-reading my post I can see several flaws in it...in any case we're on the same page that options are an important and stabilizing influence on the market...those that don't agree with that should read a good book on economics.

  6. #32
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Come on .. you are kidding, right?

    .. and so is getting out of bed in the morning a risk.

    What is tangible? Land, developed real estate, cars, clothes, cash, gold, silver, stocks and bonds. Are they all appreciating assets -no. Are there individualized risks associated with the holding of each -of course.

    As Parker admonished me recently .. "is there a point?"

    SR


  7. #33
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Nope

    Buying a Trump casino bond is as much a bet as wagering in a Trump casino. And neither gives you a share of the casino. How is one more tangible than the other? Buying gold gives you something 'tangible.' But, it is also a pure bet. Short-selling gives you nothing tangible and is a pure bet. Day-traders have nothing to do with corporation building and have been pretty much wiped out.

    401K's in theory use the long-term positive effect of the stock market to provide for your retirement. But many analysts (at least the loud ones) now say that 'buy and hold' is no longer a reasonable investment method; and a huge number of people have lost their retirement funds.

    IMHO, somewhere along the line the markets forgot their purpose. They now more resemble a casino - and not an honest one.

  8. #34
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Ok I'm In

    > Buying a Trump casino bond is as much a bet
    > as wagering in a Trump casino.

    It's not a wager, it's a loan -and yes it could go bad.

    > Buying gold gives you something 'tangible.'

    It's a tangible commodity that, as long as economies exist, can be sold, traded, or bartered for life's essential needs.

    > Day-traders have nothing to do with
    > corporation building and have been pretty
    > much wiped out.

    As in every other area, yes the ploppies are pretty much gone. The good ones soldier on.

    > 401K's in theory use the long-term positive
    > effect of the stock market to provide for
    > your retirement.

    Mine dosen't. I went to cash in 07/2002. Still wanting to get out, but still waiting.

    > But many analysts (at least
    > the loud ones) now say that 'buy and hold'
    > is no longer a reasonable investment method.

    Buy and hold used to be a sound strategy; now it ain't. Things change. People should pay attention to what they own.

    > and a huge number of people have lost their
    > retirement funds.

    For that I am truly sorry. Generally [please don't quote me the ENRON or IMCLONE exceptions, as I said earlier jail is too good for these guys] people bought into 401(K)s and then went to the beach -they should have kept paying attenetion.

    BTW, about buy and hold and being wiped out, a young person today has not been wiped out. He still has time on his side. That 7800 DOW could be 10000 tomorrow and he's back. [another aside -the 25 year old Enron cry-baby kids on 20/20 that were bemoaning they had lost their "life savings"; give me a break] The old guy should have been invested with less volatility -but I digress, sorry.

    > IMHO, somewhere along the line the markets
    > forgot their purpose. They now more resemble
    > a casino - and not an honest one.

    Not an honest one?, I probably agree. Were they ever?

    And what is their purpose? To create capital. They used to do it real well, best in the history of the world. Probably today they are not as effective because investors, in general, quit investing and started gambling.

    SR

  9. #35
    gpap
    Guest

    gpap: Another question (not options pricing)

    Thanks for your answer to the previous question.

    I have one more though. I am due to give a presentation on the likely economic and financial consequences of waging war on Iraq. Unfortunately, I have a degree in neither economics nor finance and so will feel sightly sheepish (very sheepish) when I receive a barrage of questions on the subject (however, I am good at mental arithmetic). I have some research reports from Morgan Stanley and I once recall from a book called 'Liar's Poker' that two individuals used logic to work out what products would be affected by natural disasters.

    Due to time constraints (I am being flown to Rome to work with others) and the fact that I have lost a lot of creativity from studying I was wondering if anyone could offer their '30 years of experience' in the financial markets to assist me. :-). Seriously, this means literally anything aside from oil will go up and dollar may weaken.

    Many thanks in advance and I hope this question can be answered without too much trouble.

  10. #36
    Norm Wattenberger
    Guest

    Norm Wattenberger: Re: Ok I'm In


    > Not an honest one?, I probably agree. Were
    > they ever?

    You've a got a point.



  11. #37
    Don Schlesinger
    Guest

    Don Schlesinger: Re: Another question (not options pricing)

    No two situations are ever identical. However, my best advice would be to take a look at what happened at the onset, and immediately after, the Persian Gulf War. Obviously, there are many similarities.

    Check out those financial and economic indicators and/or products that you're interested in, and see how they fared.

    Don

  12. #38
    C
    Guest

    C: Let me get this straight

    You will be flown to Rome, as in Rome, Italy, and obviously getting comped to hotel and expenses, to give a presentation "on the likely economic and financial consequences of waging war on Iraq", when you have "a degree in neither economics nor finance" and your outlook is basically what Liars' Poker was all about ??!?

    ..Baby! You already a winner.

    What are you doin' hangin' round with us strugglers here?

  13. #39
    C
    Guest

    C: Every garden needs its fertilizer

    ...No, this is not from a Chinese cookie, and it's not a sly reference either to the horse manure usually associated with stock market predictions.

    What I'm saying is that the money coming from widows-and-orphans (the real ones, not the bond traders' variety) and the Dentist-from-Belgium and the day traders, all that unsophisticated money (they always think they are sophisticated, even when consulting the Tarot) is NEEDED in order to wheel the machinery of the markets.

    This is the lubricant par excellence, for better or worse, that provides a big portion of the (in)famous liquidity of the markets. Otherwise, the big swinging dicks and the institooshional investors would bore each other to death. More or less.

    So, yes: Although the stock market (take the American one, fer instance) as a whole has been going UP (and why should it not, everything has gone up in value in the last hundr'd years), I'd wager that most small time investors (that's me an' you, ina figure of speech) have seen their fortunes go DOWN.

    Trivia : Did you know that an excellent time to get OUT of the market is when small timers have peaked coming IN ? Always monitor the Odd-trades indicators...

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

About Blackjack: The Forum

BJTF is an advantage player site based on the principles of comity. That is, civil and considerate behavior for the mutual benefit of all involved. The goal of advantage play is the legal extraction of funds from gaming establishments by gaining a mathematic advantage and developing the skills required to use that advantage. To maximize our success, it is important to understand that we are all on the same side. Personal conflicts simply get in the way of our goals.