newwave: Barring 1000 to 1

[newwave]

Thanks for all the input on my first Post on the subject. Well my main point was that barring in MOST cases seems to be much ado about nothing. I usually go to Vegas for two weeks twice a year. I've always seem to be a lil OVERLY concerned of barring (devaluing my expected win rate)....In twenty years I've been barred twice and not in the last 12 years...(and one DOESN'T count (the Barbary Coast!! This year I decided to ATTACK them hard (since I'm hoping this spring to build a house and I need EXTRA cash.) I think even if they do bar me I'll return for play several times (What can they do throw me in JAIL for cheating??) I'll really put up a fuss and scene in front of other non-counting players and that could hurt there reputation. I'm getting excited about this years December trip.

[Sun Runner]

> I think even if they do bar me I'll
> return for play several times (What can they
> do throw me in JAIL for cheating??)

No, for trespass.

That should make for a nice vacation. I'm sure the family and friends will be proud.

SR

[big nguyen]

> (What can they
> do throw me in JAIL for cheating??)

I think you need a little more information.

If they back you off and nothing more, you can return, and if they identify you a second time, they may simply back you off again.

However, if they tell you to leave the casino (and read you the trespass act), then when you return you ARE trespassing and you MIGHT actually wind up in jail.

I am not advising you not to ever return (pros do it all the time), but you should be at least aware that you are at some risk, if read the trespass act.

[Rambler]

Does anybody know anyone who ever went to jail for tresspassing? I guess it is theoretically possible, but then so is hitting magabucks.

[newwave]

> However, if they tell you to leave the
> casino (and read you the trespass act), then
> when you return you ARE trespassing and you
> MIGHT actually wind up in jail.

Tresspassing can't be more than a 3rd degree misdemeanor? So if the Expected increase in profit justifies the "worst" that can happen...it seems it may be worth spreading a couple greens to 5 pinks. To test the waters.

[Fallen, Can't Get Up]

> However, if they tell you to leave the
> casino (and read you the trespass act), then
> when you return you ARE trespassing and you
> MIGHT actually wind up in jail.

In Nevada, I believe that even if you return after being barred, you then still must be allowed to leave before they arrest you for trespassing, due to the Sheriff vs. Wilkenson (?) decision. Bottom line is that you're going to be rebarred, not arrested. How can they prove you were barred in the first place, even if they read you the Trespass Act? Did you sign anything? What proof is there that the original incident ever took place? Returning after barring would lead to rebarring. Absolutely worth the risk after a few months (try a different shift.

In other states, it's a different story ...

[Doktor]

I use a simple Hi Lo system, separate ace count, for over 25 years. Bet variation is 1-10, and on hi counts spread to 2 hands. I have never been barred and don't believe that is done at major casinos. Since I am so easily identified, I am tagged as a "counter." Furthermore, after qualified play, I can identify another "card counter" easily.

Your 1-1000 bet variation is funny. During my small course of play, I have actually seen larger bet spreads of 1-10,000--this was a wealthy kid, known to the casino as a player, and he was never barred. If you ever play to this level, you should expect at least 3-6 pit bosses as personal escorts, 4-10 security guards as "security", and the casino, if reputable, to be very cordial and tally to your every need--comps, golf trips, clothes, men/women, etc.

Unless your system involves cheating, which the pit is specifically there to check for, the standard deviation of straight BJ play should give you all the excitement gambling can have. I actually doubt you can handle the variance, so I would expect your overbetting to wreck you bankroll easily. The casinos should love you. By the way, I personally know the aforementioned player with the 10000 unit bets--he can blow 0.5 million before asking dad for another 1-3 million to bet with. This guy is not a gambler for money, but for excitement and, yes, he is a counter.

> I think you need a little more information.
> If they back you off and nothing more, you
> can return, and if they identify you a
> second time, they may simply back you off
> again.

> However, if they tell you to leave the
> casino (and read you the trespass act), then
> when you return you ARE trespassing and you
> MIGHT actually wind up in jail.

> I am not advising you not to ever return
> (pros do it all the time), but you should be
> at least aware that you are at some risk, if
> read the trespass act.

[newwave]

>
> Trespass Act? Did you sign anything? What
> proof is there that the original incident
> ever took place? Returning after barring
> would lead to rebarring. Absolutely worth
> the risk after a few months (try a different
> shift.

VERY GOOD POINT!! I think they all just bank on scare tactics.

[Sun Runner]

> How can they prove you were barred in the
> first place, even if they read you the
> Trespass Act? Did you sign anything? What
> proof is there that the original incident
> ever took place?

Cameras maybe? Personal testimony of casino types the courts already believe to be credible?

If every crime committed required signed documents, the jails would be empty.

Anyway, NEWWAVE, the guy who started this string, implied he was going to keep going back over and over, shift after shift, day after day, "hitting them hard" he said while on his two week bender. Not over a period of several months.

Do that enough times in ten days and I suspect you will be given a chance to prove the casino was wrong, while sitting in jail spending several hours of EV on lawyers fees.

SR

[Parker]

> I use a simple Hi Lo system, separate ace
> count, for over 25 years. Bet variation is
> 1-10, and on hi counts spread to 2 hands. I
> have never been barred and don't believe
> that is done at major casinos.

This statement is so outlandish as to cast doubt on the credibility of your entire post.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that you may have never been barred. If you are spreading 1-10 play-all on shoe games with bad rules and/or mediocre penetration, the casinos have probably (correctly) concluded that you pose no threat, and hence leave you alone.

There are certain parts of the country (Atlantic City) where casinos cannot bar players simply for counting cards.However, they can take other "counter-measures," such as half-shoeing, that make the game unplayable. If you are content to sit and play a negative expectation game, they will indeed leave you alone.

However, I can assure you that barring is most definitely "done at major casinos" in Nevada and elsewhere. I am personally barred from a couple of places that would certainly qualify as "major casinos," and nearly all of the serious players I know have been "read the act" on at least one occasion.

[bond trader]

> During
> my small course of play, I have actually
> seen larger bet spreads of 1-10,000--this
> was a wealthy kid, known to the casino as a
> player, and he was never barred.

I would be curious to know what casino with $1 minimums also allows $10,000 bets at their tables.

If he was spreading anywhere in the galaxy of your claim, and was 'known to the casino', and was never barred, it is because he was a very incompetent player.

To say you are exaggerating would be a gross understatement.

[newwave]

>
> Don't get me wrong, I believe that you may
> have never been barred. If you are spreading
> 1-10 play-all on shoe games with bad rules
> and/or mediocre penetration,>

But do you think I can get away with $25/$50 bets to $2500 when the true count is over say 5?

[Fallen, Can't Get Up]

> Cameras maybe?

Tapes are generally recycled after a couple of weeks. If you go back six months after you are barred, they won't have a tape. Even if they did, how would they dig it up? How will the boss know what tape to pull off the shelf (assuming you don't give them a name this time)? How will the boss even know that you were barred before? Unless you're a high profile player (repeat barrings, repeat Griffin alerts, etc.), most bosses won't even remember you. But this is why when you do get barred, you want to get to the door as quickly as possible, say as little as possible, and minimize the "memorability factor."

> Personal testimony of casino types the courts already believe to be credible?

Geez, all this "Trespass Act" bluffing is already working if you actually think this is a real risk. I am not aware of any case of a work-a-day counter type player having any legal trouble whatsoever for having returned to a casino after being Trespassed, in Nevada.

> If every crime committed required signed
> documents, the jails would be empty.

Well, as far as Re-entry/Trespassers are concerned, the jails ARE empty! Unless there's more to the story, the repeat counters are such small fish that there's no way a casino is going to bother pursuing that. Besides, there's still Sheriff vs. Wilkenson on the player's side.

> Anyway, NEWWAVE, the guy who started this
> string, implied he was going to keep going
> back over and over, shift after shift, day
> after day, "hitting them hard" he
> said while on his two week bender. Not over
> a period of several months.

That's reckless. I DO think that getting trespassed is a serious matter, and should be given plenty of time to cool off. The more the better.