Blackjack dealer checks for TENS when the upcard is a ten- should I "cheat"?

**All Clear** · 04-15-2012, 03:19 PM

I found a dealer (8 deck game) who checks the hole card both legnth-wise and width-wise whenever the upcard is a ten or ace. Once I realized he was doing this every time, I started leaning over the table and looking at the mirror when he would check to see if he had a ten-valued card under his ten. To be clear- if the dealer had a ten valued card under his up ten valued card he wouldn't announce anything- he would just go the first base player to get a hand signal as a regular dealer would- I was the only one at the table leaning over, and looking at the mirror with him (the dealer didn't notice- he would be looking down at the mirror and not at me).

A couple of times I definitely was able to see paint, and decided not to split eights on one occasion (against what I knew was a dealer twenty), decided to hit a hard 17 on a couple of occasions (didn't win the hand either time), and if I didn't see any paint, I would stand on my stiff totals (since there is a 5/8 chance the dealer has a 12 - 16 and will have to hit).

A couple of questions-
1) I assume I should stay with a hard 12 (or 13+) against a dealer ten, if I know for sure that the dealer does not have a T, J, Q, K, or A underneath, but would like someone to confirm. Should I also double down with my two card hard 9 or 8 against a T with a 2 - 9 underneath his T?

2) Is this the type of thing that I can get in real trouble for doing? Would anyone try to bring criminal charges against me if I am caught leaning over the table to look at the mirror along with the dealer when he checks what his hole-card is? I recall someone once getting in trouble for trying to look at other cards in the deck when applying the yellow cut card to an 8 deck shoe.

Thanks!

**AussiePlayer** · 04-15-2012, 10:46 PM

This will tell you how to play the cards when you can get your 'extra info' http://qfit.com/book/ModernBlackjackPage447.htm

**bigplayer** · 04-16-2012, 12:52 AM

It is not cheating however they may think you and the dealer are in Cahoots. I would continue to look but try not to be very obvious about it. The casino is responsible to protect their hand (just like an opponent at Texas Holdem in the poker room would be). It is not up to you to look away.

BTW, if you are accused of being in Cahoots with the dealer, all they would have to do is see the dealer always doing the same thing regardless of who the players are to see that it's a procedure error or bad training rather than a cheating type of thing. You should still always be aware of the possible fallout from any situation you are in keeping in mind the vindictive nature of many casinos, particularly tribal ones.

**suicyco maniac** · 04-16-2012, 03:43 AM

Might try getting a copy of Steve Forte's "Read the dealer" If you can get the dealer to really love or hate you he may give off tells when he has a pat 20 and you wouldn't have to be so obvious in your leaning over the table.

**All Clear** · 04-17-2012, 01:07 PM

Unfortunately, my looking at the mirror is VERY obvious to anyone observing the table. Try going to a not-in-use blackjack table at a casino, and test out the mirror with a sheet of paper with black or red letters. Even though I am slightly taller than the average American, I still need to lean a decent amount over the table to get a view that would help. :-(

I may try to find this dealer again, perhaps a few weeks from now. With the updated basic strategy (thanks, "Aussie Player") on what I should do if the dealer doesn't have a 20, I should have a decent enough edge, and am no longer worried about any criminal ramifications (it is not an Indian Casino), especially if I just try this on occasion.

**AussiePlayer** · 04-17-2012, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by All Clear

Unfortunately, my looking at the mirror is VERY obvious to anyone observing the table. Try going to a not-in-use blackjack table at a casino, and test out the mirror with a sheet of paper with black or red letters. Even though I am slightly taller than the average American, I still need to lean a decent amount over the table to get a view that would help. :-(

Can you see it if you play standing up?

**WABJ11** · 05-22-2012, 04:44 AM

Funny that I came along this thread as this same exact thing happened to me last week. Only the dealer was actually telling me when he/she had a 20! (At this casino the dealer keeps their own tokes) Like the original poster said, I stood on my pat hands and kept hitting when I knew he/she had 20.

**AussiePlayer** · 05-22-2012, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by WABJ11

Funny that I came along this thread as this same exact thing happened to me last week. Only the dealer was actually telling me when he/she had a 20! (At this casino the dealer keeps their own tokes) Like the original poster said, I stood on my pat hands and kept hitting when I knew he/she had 20.

I would be extremely careful playing with a dealer who is actually telling you what the hole card was! I don't imagine that it would take much to prove that as dealer/player collusion whether you're in on it or not, but especially if the dealer is doing it to get extra tips out of you!

**WABJ11** · 05-22-2012, 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by AussiePlayer

I would be extremely careful playing with a dealer who is actually telling you what the hole card was! I don't imagine that it would take much to prove that as dealer/player collusion whether you're in on it or not, but especially if the dealer is doing it to get extra tips out of you!

They don't have mics on the floor. What am I suppose to do plug my ears?

**simple man** · 05-22-2012, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by WABJ11

They don't have mics on the floor. What am I suppose to do plug my ears?

The worry in this case is NOT concerning surveillance, as you are correct. However, if even a single alert or ill-tempered supervisor (pit boss) garners the slightest inkling of dealer-player collusion (or even simply dealer collusion, for that matter), the resulting scrutiny, and inevitable recourse, would be quite severe. Collusion is akin to capital crime, and is often met with swift and terrible consequence.

My opinion, and I wish you all the best, but be aware of the gravity of the situation - potentially positive, as well as negative. Happy hunting, and give 'em hell!

**PinkChip** · 05-22-2012, 12:32 PM

I also would be very cautious regarding the "lean over" method. From what I read in literature, it's one thing to use information if you catch a glimpse of a card, but it is another thing to actively try to get this information with considerable effort. Front loading, that means seeing the hole card from first base or any other suitable seat, seems to be legally OK, but e.g. spooking, that means having a second player standing behind the table and watching the dealer check his hole card from behind, is considered cheating (there is a scene in the 1995 movie "Casino" where Robert de Niro detects two colluding players using this method). Which is somewhat similar to looking into the mirror which normally only the dealer can watch at. Hey, this is the reason why they use(d) mirrors :-)

**EmeraldCityBJ** · 05-24-2012, 11:40 AM

If you want to see this dealer get trained properly in a short period of time, keep hitting those hard 17s.

**WRX** · 07-13-2012, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by All Clear

I assume I should stay with a hard 12 (or 13+) against a dealer ten, if I know for sure that the dealer does not have a T, J, Q, K, or A underneath, but would like someone to confirm. Should I also double down with my two card hard 9 or 8 against a T with a 2 - 9 underneath his T?

Wrong.

Unfortunately, this information (T/2-9 only when the dealer shows T) is quite weak. Read the Dealer had more to do with the situation in years past where the dealer would peek manually, and would know the dealer's exact hole card.