Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: mhiltz: Countermeasures on the Strip?

  1. #1
    mhiltz
    Guest

    mhiltz: Countermeasures on the Strip?

    In casual conversation a couple of Vegas habitues recently commented that the Strip casinos are cracking down hard on counters lately. Anyone out there feeling more heat?

  2. #2
    Card Counter
    Guest

    Card Counter: Same old stuff.

    I've noticed nothing changes, it's been the same old stuff. You know, raise your bet from $5 to $100 and get a few strange looks at times, especially if you're winning.

    Sometimes I think I'm doing something wrong when the casinos ignore my action, I guess if I start betting $500 bucks a hand they would give me much more attention, but I dont have a huge bank and dont care for the recognition.

  3. #3
    Spokanimal
    Guest

    Spokanimal: I would agree that...

    ..there has been an uptick in heat overall in LV over the past few years but to characterize it as "cracking down hard" would be a gross overstatement.

    I'm seeing the trends breaking down along gaming corporation boundaries (eg: PPE, HET, GAUG, MGG, MBG, etc.) which is not unusual with all the consolidation and more central control of policies in recent years.

    Of course, aside from heat, countermeasures abound. No midshoe and no spreading to multiple hands midshoe are spreading rapidly and not just in LV.. it's becoming widespread in my home state as well. Similarly, PPE invented 6:5 payouts for naturals in SD and that is spreading along with SF21 as well. So far, it looks like fake DD (where 104 cards are drawn from shufflers loaded with 6 or 8 decks) is not going to succeed as Venetian & LVHilton have removed them (although it was still in Silver Legacy in April).

    Spok

  4. #4
    Card Counter
    Guest

    Card Counter: Carnival games

    Dont let the new casino carnival games bother you....they come and go.

    From what I've obsereved, the main reason why some casinos have changed to no spreading to two hands in the middle of the shoe is to keep the ploppies happy..."You're messing up that flow."

    Anyway I dont jump conclusions and assume that these casino tactics are directed to my attention.

  5. #5
    The Mayor
    Guest

    The Mayor: my recent experience, and an idea

    On my last trip I saw a husband-wife team spread 50-1 on a shoe game (lockstep with the count). They got no heat as they calmly removed 4k from the tills on a single shoe.

    I have been tossed from only two strip casinos in my last 4 trips -- even though I spread 1x$10 to 2x$75 at DD. My action must be below radar level. Downtown I last only a few minutes in each casino. Hit and run.

    On a different topic, what we need is a "Union of Professional BJ players" -- with anonymous contributions to a legal/lobbying/media team. This organization would have the power to go to the media and complain about 6/5 or SF21 -- to organize strikes against casinos or distribution of campaign material on the strip (like porn is distributed). And just maybe, to take class action against the casinos like Uston did in NJ.

    Just a thought

    --Mayor

  6. #6
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Re: my recent experience, and an idea

    > On a different topic, what we need is a
    > "Union of Professional BJ players"
    > -- with anonymous contributions to a
    > legal/lobbying/media team.

    With all due respect, don't the casino's have the right to offer whatever game they want. It's their right to offer it up; it's our right not to play it.

    Would we have to wear hoods and robes on the picket line?

    If I read history correctly, after Beat The Dealer came out didn't the casinos go in to panick mode and radically change the rules and increase the heat? Seems like this might do the same.

    In retrospect, you're kidding, right?!

    SR


  7. #7
    Spokanimal
    Guest

    Spokanimal: Good point...

    that you make about ploppies complaining about "the flow" being a reason for NMM. I've spoken to 3 table-games mgrs. about it and, in the aggregate, they concur that that's half the reason. The other half is that it makes spreading harder for the pros. One of them was emphatic that it made cheques threshholds easier for his dealers to visualize and call out.. which I agree with since I've often witnessed cheques at $100, for example, but not at 2x$75 in LV venues.

    Double benefit.. certainly accounts for the spread of NMM which I think will continue.

    Spok

  8. #8
    The Mayor
    Guest

    The Mayor: More thoughts, please

    > In retrospect, you're kidding, right?!

    > SR

    It appears that you believe the immediate action would be retribution by the casinos against any member of such a lobbying organization. Sadly, I agree with you. Anyone who joins would have to be a "Martyr." The question is, suppose we get these martyr's together for our little holy war -- and beat the casinos in court -- would this ruin the game more than it is already ruined with SF21 and 6-5 BJ and shufflemasters etc... or would it once again popularize the game ala Uston and reenergize the competition among casinos?

    --Mayor

  9. #9
    Adam N. Subtractum
    Guest

    Adam N. Subtractum: I like your ideas Mayor...

    Though I am not a pro BJ player, I can say from past experiences in life (business, local politics, communities) that a small group of determined individuals CAN make a drastic difference on the big picture. I'm all for your ideas, Mayor, there IS strength in unity...

    ANS

  10. #10
    ET Fan
    Guest

    ET Fan: Uston, AC, legal action, etc.

    I don't think Uston's suit helped popularize the game. I think the suit merely hastened the day when AC discovered they could deal to the lowest common denominator, since competition is practically nil in the region. They might have extracted more from the game, for a year or so, if all the counters had acted in concert to stay just below the radar. But this was never in the cards. Market forces rule us just as they rule the dark side.

    I'm in favor of the idea of legal action, if the object is to extract more money from the casinos. I can get behind that. But to improve table conditions? I'll be in Madagascar, waiting for ice fishing season.

    L8R,
    ETF

  11. #11
    bond trader
    Guest

    bond trader: Danger, Will Robinson!

    I certainly understand the desire behind what you're proposing, Mayor, but I think it would do more harm than good. Just having something like a 'Professional BJ Players Union' would, I believe, double the paranoia of the casinos. I certainly agree that we should try to educate the public about such fleece games as 6:5 BJ (I have my own thoughts on this that involve running through guilty casinos in a Flash Gordon outfit), but the tricky part is doing it so that Joe Public can clearly see the game for what it is, and feel resentment toward casions that have been fleecing them.

    I strongly disagree with taking any sort of legal action against casinos for barring or conditions of the games they offer -- I would be devastated if Las Vegas turned into Atlantic City. Just MHO.

    BT

  12. #12
    Sun Runner
    Guest

    Sun Runner: Re: More thoughts, please

    > It appears that you believe the immediate
    > action would be retribution by the casinos
    > against any member of such a lobbying
    > organization.

    No, that's not really it.

    What are you going to sue them over? For putting up their own casino, for putting up their own money, to try and beat you out of yours? Are you going to sue because your expected ROR just went down?

    Having recently come to play blackjack, I sit around all day wishing I lived in 1960 when they dealt single deck down to the last card. But I wasn't. They changed the rules and the old guys dealt with it.

    I think Thorp said it best .."it will now take me seven hours to win what I used to win in five."

    Believe me, I don't like the changes either. But realistically, it don't matter what I like. As long as they are not cheatin' .. what are you gonna do?!

    By the way, are the odds any worse with 6:5 or SF21 than with say craps or roulette. If not, maybe you should target those games.

    I think market forces and capitalism will win the day. If not, and they get enough ploppies to keep playing, maybe you and ANS will pony up a casino using the "old" rules. Let me know when it opens, will ya?!

    Sympathetically but realistically yours,

    SR

  13. #13
    MathProf
    Guest

    MathProf: Comments on "Union"

    > On a different topic, what we need is a
    > "Union of Professional BJ players"
    > -- with anonymous contributions to a
    > legal/lobbying/media team. This organization
    > would have the power to go to the media and
    > complain about 6/5 or SF21 -- to organize
    > strikes against casinos or distribution of
    > campaign material on the strip (like porn is
    > distributed). And just maybe, to take class
    > action against the casinos like Uston did in
    > NJ.

    > Just a thought

    > --Mayor

    I do not see much merit in the idea of a Union of Professional Players to protest to the media about poor games, etc. I think we should protest these things, and do what we can to publicize them as mush as possible. Nut this should be does from point of view that the general public, and not the professional players. The Headline "Prof. players boycott 6:5 games" may actually be counter-productive.

    However, the idea of having some type of Legal Defense Fund has much merit. The fund could be available to help counters who were illegally detained, or improperly arrested, etc. There are other important issues that can be taken up as well.

    I am not in favor of this Fund supporting suits that seek ti limit the rights of the casinos to bar. I am of the personal opinion that such limitations are a net plus for the players. But there are many players who do not share this view, and who oppose such restrictions. I would rather see a fund whose objectives could be fully supported by all counters.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

About Blackjack: The Forum

BJTF is an advantage player site based on the principles of comity. That is, civil and considerate behavior for the mutual benefit of all involved. The goal of advantage play is the legal extraction of funds from gaming establishments by gaining a mathematic advantage and developing the skills required to use that advantage. To maximize our success, it is important to understand that we are all on the same side. Personal conflicts simply get in the way of our goals.