Heading to LV next week. Can anyone tell me where the best single-deck games are. I am a small-time bettor, so I am not averse to Downtown. Also, read Blackbelt in Blackjack and am thinking of using the simple Red Seven. Any advise as to how to implement his techniques while minimizing pit heat (One-deck Wonging)? Also, should I learn early and late surrender strategy, or double on splits? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> Heading to LV next week. Can anyone tell me
> where the best single-deck games are. I am a
> small-time bettor, so I am not averse to
> Downtown. Also, read Blackbelt in Blackjack
> and am thinking of using the simple Red
> Seven. Any advise as to how to implement his
> techniques while minimizing pit heat
> (One-deck Wonging)? Also, should I learn
> early and late surrender strategy, or double
> on splits? Any help would be greatly
> appreciated.
If you're intent on playing SD games, you're not going to find das or late surrender (and you're not going to find early surrender anywhere in Las Vegas, period!).
Forget about trying to Wong SD games; it will get you thrown out in a heartbeat. And, if you're learning BS or index numbers, expect most SD games to be h17, rather than s17.
Good luck!
Don
> If you're intent on playing SD games,
> you're not going to find das or late
> surrender (and you're not going to find
> early surrender anywhere in Las Vegas,
> period!).
That's a bit inaccurate. There are several (single deck) games with DAS and at least one with LS. And no, these aren't of the bastard Superfun variety. If you're a small-time player (less than $50), try the Fiesta (DAS, RsA) or the Barcelona (LS and a bunch of strange yet favorable rules). I believe both of these games actually have small off the top positive expectations for the player (assuming you're on top of your single deck basic strategy).
And now...here's where NOT to play. Do not play any single deck games in any PPE property. It seems that the once reputable shoe games in places like Caesar's, Bally's and The Flamingo have nearly all been converted to the outright insulting 6:5 blackjack single deck games. I just can't believe that people actually play this game...but they do. Sure, it's still a lot smaller of a house edge than most games in the casinos but still...it's hard to believe. I guess it is sort of like going into a casino and seeing the double zero Roulette tables full and the single zero table empty with some yawning dealer standing behind it twiddling his thumbs.
Also, if you're going to specialize in single decks, you would do well to learn something with more strategy-play power than the Red Seven. Something along the lines of Zen could give you a big boost in single deck.
Don, when was the last time you were in Vegas?
Do you still play blackjack?
I was there on March 2, 3, and 4 and found the following 1 deck games on the strip (I didn't go downtown):
Circus Circus offers 1 deck, H17, DAS, D10 & 11
Slots a Fun offers 1 deck no-H17, DAS, D8-9-10-11
Excalibur offers 1 Deck H17, D10& 11
I don't think there are any LS 1 deck games but if you play 6 deck you need to know LS; the best 6 deck games in Vegas offer it and it is very important.
1 deck penetration is about 50% but some dealers deal deeper. Try to create better games by spreading to multiple hands if the dealer is counting rounds.
You can Wong (back count) if there are no posted "no mid-deck/shoe entry" signs. Have an act when you Wong.
If you can't Wong, exit the game on negative counts.
In addition to 1 deck look for 2 deck DAS games: Mirage and TI (high limits), Stardust (all limits) Barbary Coast (all limits). Barbary is only 50% penetration but there are plenty of 2 deck tables with different limits for Wonging. Watch for pit heat at Barbary and don't play too long.
A couple of dumb questions-first, what does RsA mean (re-split Aces)? Also, do you have any recommendations for a blackjack software program that is Windows NT 4.0-compatible? Thanks for your advice on the Zen count. Are there any other counting systems that you would recommend?
The Rookie
> I was there on March 2, 3, and 4 and found
> the following 1 deck games on the strip (I
> didn't go downtown):
> Circus Circus offers 1 deck, H17, DAS, D10
> & 11
> Slots a Fun offers 1 deck no-H17, DAS,
> D8-9-10-11
> Excalibur offers 1 Deck H17, D10& 11
I consider these to be extremely poor games because of h17 and/or no soft-doubing, not to mention the poor penetration.
I may have been wrong to say that there were no SD das games, but the above, some of which trade das for h17 and no soft double, are clearly even worse still than if they were simply SD, ndas, with no other poor rules.
Don
Yes, RsA is resplit aces. As for other counts I'd recommend...I can't really do that from personal experience. I have pretty much only ever used Zen, though I have modified it with sidecounts as appropriate. However, if you read the various sim results, you will see that the Advanced Omega II seems to perform very well. I think the general concensus in the blackjack community these days is that you probably shouldn't go through the hassle of learning anything more complicated than a strong level 2 count - anything more difficult is usually not worth the effort.
> I consider these to be extremely poor games
> because of h17 and/or no soft-doubing, not
> to mention the poor penetration.
> I may have been wrong to say that there
> were no SD das games, but the above, some of
> which trade das for h17 and no soft double,
> are clearly even worse still than if they
> were simply SD, ndas, with no other poor
> rules.
> Don
Good to hear from you Don.
However, I respectively disagree with your response.
The Slots a Fun 1 deck, no H17, DAS, D8-9-10-11 game is not poor - it is excellent.
Off the top of the deck the disadvantage is only about -.15%.
In the Circus game the H17 - DAS tradeoff is about equal - neither rule expands or contracts much when counting (as you note in Attack) and you are only left with the expanding D10 & 11 rule. (Actually the H17 rule disadvantage contracts a bit for the counter.)
It is unfair to compare these games with 1 deck, no H17 no DAS, an even game off the top, which is nonexistent.
What do you mean by "poor penetration"?
All else (rules, spread) neing equal, 50% penetration in 1 deck is as good a game as 75% in 2 deck, and 90% in 6 deck.
The key in rating penetration is the number of cards left undealt - not % penetration. Wong has noted this and it is confirmed in the World's Greatest Blackjack Simulation.
> The Slots a Fun 1 deck, no H17, DAS,
> D8-9-10-11 game is not poor - it is
> excellent.
I misread your unusual notation of no-h17 for h17. It would be better to write the more conventional s17. As you know, you won't get far trying to convince me about how wonderful SD games are!
> In the Circus game the H17 - DAS tradeoff
> is about equal - neither rule expands or
> contracts much when counting (as you note in
> Attack) and you are only left with the
> expanding D10 & 11 rule. (Actually the
> H17 rule disadvantage contracts a bit for
> the counter.)
Naw. The c-SCORE sucks for such a game. The SCORE is $41, but with five players, the hourly win will be much poorer, because the SCORE assumes only ONE other player, and that makes a HUGE difference!
> It is unfair to compare these games with 1
> deck, no H17 no DAS, an even game off the
> top, which is nonexistent.
Used to be pretty standard. H17 has taken over, all over the Strip.
> What do you mean by "poor
> penetration"?
Two rounds to five people is about 31-32 cards. What's there to be excited about?
> All else (rules, spread) being equal, 50%
> penetration in 1 deck is as good a game as
> 75% in 2 deck, and 90% in 6 deck.
All else is never equal! Assuming rules and spread to be the same makes no sense. All over the Strip, we can get s17, das, ls, and sometimes rsa at shoe games. I've gotten 1-12, if not higher spreads, at shoes all my life. Can you get that at SD?
When teams with 7- and 8-figure bankrolls play, will it be at Slots O' Fun, SD? Will it be anywhere on earth, at SD?
I understand your point of view, but, for many players who want to make real money at the game, SD is useless for conventional counters.
> The key in rating penetration is the number
> of cards left undealt - not % penetration.
> Wong has noted this and it is confirmed in
> the World's Greatest Blackjack Simulation.
The key is simply looking at the SCOREs. Playing with 5 players at SD is a waste of time, in my view. You may get to play the second hand at a decent level of pen, but you have to place the bet for that hand after seeing only about 16 cards.
To each his own. I won't play such games, and there's little you could say to change my mind.
Don
> It is unfair to compare these games with 1
> deck, no H17 no DAS, an even game off the
> top, which is nonexistent.
Are you SURE about this? I've found a single deck game with S17 and DAS. And no, this wasn't in ages past, it was a couple of months ago. I'm not convinced that's how the casino intended to offer that game that day, but that's how it went down. And it's bound to happen again.
> All else (rules, spread) neing equal, 50%
> penetration in 1 deck is as good a game as
> 75% in 2 deck, and 90% in 6 deck.
You can get a lot better than 50% penetration at LV single deck games. I wouldn't waste my time trying to get a good game at Circus Circus, but you can certainly find good single deck games in LV. Don't settle for mediocrity! With a little (ok, a lot) of scouting, I've been able to find dozens of single deck games with 75% penetration and some with penetration so good that talking about it here would only make people think I am a liar.
> To each his own. I won't play such games,
> and there's little you could say to change
> my mind.
Indeed. This sums up the single deck vs. shoe philosophy. On the whole, playing the shoes is a steady, reliable grind. There are good shoe games to be found and, as long as you don't get carried away, you can grind out the money slowly but surely with very little trouble. You generally don't have to scout games too hard, you just go to the places where you know the penetration is standard and good and where the rules are liberal. You could play everyday for a month and never have to leave The Strip, let alone the rest of Las Vegas. Sure, scouting around sometimes pays off (I found a dealer who burned one card and dealt all of the rest of the cards out of a 6 deck shoe!) but, on the whole, it's generally not worth the effort.
Single deck is a different beast. You can rely on finding mostly extremely poor games. You have to scout around and find the odd great game (good rules, misinterpretations of the rules, apathetic personnel who don't care about a 1-20 spread on single deck, great penetration, etc.) and then pound on it heavily.
In the end, both approaches get the money. How much is really a function of your creativity and ability. The shoe player will definitely get in far more hands and probably won't be bored stiff wandering around for hours without putting down a single bet, but the single decker will be playing with a greater advantage. For me, it's all about my mood. If I feel like parking my rear for the majority of the day and laying into a relaxing series of shoes then so be it (often the case when it's 110 degrees outside in midsummer) but, if I feel like hoofing it all over town, then the single decks it is.
Thanks for all of your help! Any thoughts about software to aid my practice? Also, I will try both the Fiesta and Barcelona-any others that I should think about? I read your other response re: deck penetration-should I stay Downtown to find those casinos?
The Rookie
> "As you know, you
> won't get far trying to convince me about
> how wonderful SD games are!"
I am not trying to convince you about SD - the string started with Rookie, a small-time bettor, heading to LV and asking where the best single deck games are. Rookie is not on a team with a seven figure bankroll.
You criticize the SCORE for the Circus 1 deck, H17, DAS, D10 & 11, but it is better than Northern Nevada H17, D10 & 11 games, and compares favorably with what is available on the strip for the small-time bettor. The 50% penetration is as good as 75% in 2 deck and 90% in 6 deck.
I would not recommend playing with 5 players in 1 or 2 deck.
> "H17 has taken
> over, all over the Strip."
> I noticed that on my recent trips to the Strip.
From Monte Carlo up to Mandalay it was mostly h17 on 2 decks. Ceasars 6 deck was H17.
Also, some casinos have H17 for low limit players and s17 for high limit.
I also noticed many shuffle machines - some continuous. It looks like they are trying to make BJ like craps.
> "All else is never equal! Assuming rules and
> spread to be the same makes no sense."
It does for evaluating penetration.
> "over the Strip, we can get s17, das, ls, and
> sometimes rsa at shoe games. I've gotten
> 1-12, if not higher spreads, at shoes all my
> life. Can you get that at SD?"
> Yes, I can, and a small-time bettor like Rookie can. Further, although the rules in some 6 deck games are good, the average penetration that I saw was about 1 and 1/2 decks cut off.
>For a big-time bettor, 2 and 6 deck obviously are the better choice. But for a small-time rookie, 1 deck games are an option.
>
>
>
Posting Permissions
-*-
Bookmarks