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Thread: afraid player: cheating tequniques worldwide

  1. #1
    afraid player
    Guest

    afraid player: cheating tequniques worldwide

    some questions to experts:
    We all know well the classical second dealing, it may be by marked cards or by a mirror in the shoe.
    Shoes with less tens and aces are trivially unfavorable, not necessary to discuss.
    Are there more possibilities, like prearranging a 6 deck game? i sometimes suspected that at some places the dealer nearly never has anything else than another ten on his ten, that always come out several tens in a row and then several small cards in a row. in worst case you have a double, get a small card and dealer draws 4 or 5 other small cards without busting. is it just paranoia or do card decks exist that group cards "automatically" in a bad order? maybe that the cards have different surfaces and during the shuffle they statistically group unfavourable?
    is there any possibility to detect or suspect this? as we know high losses occur occasionally.
    other question: can a dealer of a honest casino cheat the player in a shoe game if the casino has no manipulated cards and no manipulated shoe? do not consider the trivial case of trying to count the points of the hands incorrectly.
    opposite question: can the casino cheat you when the dealer is honest or does not have the skill, i.e. cheat without the help of the dealer? an example would be cards that group automatically during the shuffle, but i do not know if such cards exist.
    thanks for any answer

  2. #2
    Illusion
    Guest

    Illusion: Re: cheating tequniques worldwide

    >Prearranging a 6 deck game

    (Or any number of decks) This is known as a cooler deck.

    Defense against this is to show up when the tables are opened and watch the dealer and floor supervisor open the new decks, inspect the cards and watch the opening shuffle of a table.

    Some casino's will presuffle the cards the day before or earlier that day during slow business times. If you see cards that are already to be played when a table opens you should inquire when they do preshuffle. If your not satisfied then don't play or come earlier in the day to watch it done.

    >Is it just paranoia or do card decks exist that group cards "automatically" in a bad order? maybe that the cards have different surfaces and during the shuffle they statistically group unfavorable?

    Not likely but I will never rule anything out, I have not heard of anything like this for shuffling. You can make decks of cards with rough and smooth surfaces but this is so the dealer has information on cards value so they and manipulate the deck to deal tops, bottoms, 2nds, flip the high cards as their up card etc...

    >Can a dealer of a honest casino cheat the player in a shoe game if the casino has no manipulated cards and no manipulated shoe?

    Yes it is possible

    >Can the casino cheat you when the dealer is honest or does not have the skill, i.e. cheat without the help of the dealer?

    Again, yes this is possible

  3. #3
    Ikipiros
    Guest

    Ikipiros: Re: cheating tequniques worldwide

    Not an expert but I have come accross dealer 'mechanics'.
    One of the methods I have seen is be using skimmed cards .Similar types of decks can be found at stores selling Magic tricks merchandise. One side of the cards get skimmed diagonally, one way for high cards and opposite way for small cards.
    Of course this is very slight but the dealer can feel the difference by touch.
    The cards come in the beginning with big clumps of high cards and low cards without spreading them or shuffling them. This is maintained later on because the delear false shuffles part of shoe and keeps the clumps together (he can feel the clumps by touch)and only correctly shuffles only part of the shoe. They probably only use 1 or 2 decks of skimmed cards in a 6 decks game. Note that the dealer keeps Aces together with the small cards.
    The effect is that is impossible to get a BJ during the low cards clumps with the Aces and small cards, you stand on stiffs v 2-6 whereas the dealer hits and gets small cards and does not bust etc. You also get creamed if you count because you get extreme High counts, Bet high and the high cards never come.

    The occasion I witnessed this had the following characteristics:
    - Very small casino
    - Country with very little casino regulation
    - Dealer was very experienced (speed, accuracy, way he shuffled etc)
    - Pitboss, Inpector were not checking at all the specific Dealer
    - Casino was almost empty (they really needed to milk every single customer to stay afloat)

    If you come across conditions like these and the cards continuously keep coming in clumps of small and high cards for several shuffles, then I would worry.

    By the way, did you come across suspected cheating and that's why you ask?

  4. #4
    rainer
    Guest

    rainer: Re: cheating tequniques worldwide

    Ikipiros, very good advice, all you post here,
    happened to me in Egypt near Hurghada, in
    a very small casino at El Gouna.

    regards rainer

  5. #5
    afraid player
    Guest

    afraid player: Re: cheating tequniques worldwide

    I had some sessions at some places with counts that always went to an extreme. Very high counts and dealer never busted, but a lot of small cards came out. 2 small cards with a total to double against a dealer's small and: i got a small and ended with a stiff after double and dealer took 4 small cards more without busting. the shoe ended with a high count and the big cards did not come out. and the cut card was different from shoe to shoe, as if the dealer knew where the big cards were.
    When the high cards were at the beginning of the shoe: they always glued together, dealer nearly always also had a 20 when i had.
    I thought that maybe the cards have different surfaces and high cards glue together and also low cards. but i have no confirmation of that. but maybe i fell in a more trivial trap like a false shuffle.
    I had this suspect in Prague at Aleks.

    > Not an expert but I have come accross dealer
    > 'mechanics'.
    > One of the methods I have seen is be using skimmed
    > cards .Similar types of decks can be found at stores
    > selling Magic tricks merchandise. One side of the
    > cards get skimmed diagonally, one way for high cards
    > and opposite way for small cards.
    > Of course this is very slight but the dealer can feel
    > the difference by touch.
    > The cards come in the beginning with big clumps of
    > high cards and low cards without spreading them or
    > shuffling them. This is maintained later on because
    > the delear false shuffles part of shoe and keeps the
    > clumps together (he can feel the clumps by touch)and
    > only correctly shuffles only part of the shoe. They
    > probably only use 1 or 2 decks of skimmed cards in a 6
    > decks game. Note that the dealer keeps Aces together
    > with the small cards.
    > The effect is that is impossible to get a BJ during
    > the low cards clumps with the Aces and small cards,
    > you stand on stiffs v 2-6 whereas the dealer hits and
    > gets small cards and does not bust etc. You also get
    > creamed if you count because you get extreme High
    > counts, Bet high and the high cards never come.

    > The occasion I witnessed this had the following
    > characteristics:
    > - Very small casino
    > - Country with very little casino regulation
    > - Dealer was very experienced (speed, accuracy, way he
    > shuffled etc)
    > - Pitboss, Inpector were not checking at all the
    > specific Dealer
    > - Casino was almost empty (they really needed to milk
    > every single customer to stay afloat)

    > If you come across conditions like these and the cards
    > continuously keep coming in clumps of small and high
    > cards for several shuffles, then I would worry.

    > By the way, did you come across suspected cheating and
    > that's why you ask?

  6. #6
    maguder
    Guest

    maguder: Re: cheating tequniques worldwide

    I know very goog explanation for big clumps.
    There are 2methods to maintain clumps.
    1. PLUGGING = dealer sorts card when burst or finish each games, and plug big cards in a lower part and small cards in the middle of consumed cards. If shuffle is simple big cards come on top and small cards come in middle or latter half of next shoe. (imagine normally player tends to cut near center.) then house egde is bigger.(this plugging I observed in Srilanka before.) Even if shuffle is not simple its not hard to keep clumps. this is obious case.
    and every experianced player will notice it.

    2. many peple here say SKIMMING,, well posible but its conspicuous and not really sufficient to build beautifully sorted clumps..by surface?? no. Defferenciated surfaces serve the SECOND DEAL YES! Not CLUMPING.
    The answer is that these casinos use special cards in a trapezoidal shape.
    Example, if PICURES have trapezoidal shape and slightly bigger. and other cards are normal. And dealer swings cards(but not vertically),he pretends to swing but he skims pictures.( holding 1deck of cards and pulling out pictures little by little.
    This tric is reported in Cyplus(2 casinos, I dont know if I can name them here,, if someone intends to go there ,mail me) and in south Korea not mainland but Cheju island.
    Sorry guys I cant write in English well.

  7. #7
    BOND
    Guest

    BOND: Re: cheating tequniques worldwide

    > I know very goog explanation for big clumps.
    > There are 2methods to maintain clumps.
    > 1. PLUGGING = dealer sorts card when burst or finish
    > each games, and plug big cards in a lower part and
    > small cards in the middle of consumed cards. If
    > shuffle is simple big cards come on top and small
    > cards come in middle or latter half of next shoe.
    > (imagine normally player tends to cut near center.)
    > then house egde is bigger.(this plugging I observed in
    > Srilanka before.) Even if shuffle is not simple its
    > not hard to keep clumps. this is obious case.
    > and every experianced player will notice it.

    > 2. many peple here say SKIMMING,, well posible but its
    > conspicuous and not really sufficient to build
    > beautifully sorted clumps..by surface?? no.
    > Defferenciated surfaces serve the SECOND DEAL YES! Not
    > CLUMPING.
    > The answer is�@that these casinos use special
    > cards in a trapezoidal shape.
    > Example, if PICURES have trapezoidal shape and
    > slightly bigger. and other cards are normal. And
    > dealer swings cards(but not vertically),he pretends to
    > swing but he skims pictures.( holding 1deck of cards
    > and pulling out pictures little by little.
    > This tric is reported in Cyplus(2 casinos, I dont know
    > if I can name them here,, if someone intends to go
    > there ,mail me) and in south Korea not mainland but
    > Cheju island.
    > Sorry guys I cant write in English well.

    I have encountered two cases of dealer manipulation of the shuffle outside the USA. Both are 6d games.

    1) The first case is more obvious. The dealor used a false shuffle and basically controlled the shoe by changing how different segments are combined after each shoe. He did not use the same shuffle procedure after each shoe. He also selectively inserted some cards at the bottom of the discards and others at the top of the discards.

    2) The second case is less obvious with the dealor carefully watching how the cards are mixed during the shuffle. He uses a same shuffle procedure after each shoe but is careful how each half deck is shuffled together to form a 1 deck segment.

    Has anyone seen either the first or seceond case?

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