Paolo: any pontoon expert?

[Paolo]

Is there any website with pontoon variants?
my example:

6D
S17
no hole card, ENHC
only 1 card on split aces, AX is only 21 after split
double 4 times possible, but if you already have 4 cards you can only double hard 12 or more. free card on 4 card 11 or less.
hit after double possible (i.e. take card without double again)
pontoon pays 2/1, looses against dealer pontoon
dealer wins ties
any 5 card trick pays 3/2 at once, before dealer takes a second card
dealer does not benefit from 5 card trick
player can hit or stand when (s)he wants, i.e. need not hit 14 or less (as in the example on the page of Wizzard of odds)
no surrender

can anyone tell me where i can find anything about such a game

What influence has the count at such a game. for example the propability of a 5 card trick goes up at negative counts. what is the final efffect of positive and negative counts?

[Li]

I'm no expert but here are some qualitative reasoning.

S17 is good.
No hole card is bad because pontoon looses against dealer, dealer win ties and 5 card tricks don't happen often enough. Not to mention it'll kill your re-re-redoubles.
Redouble hard12 only against dealer 7/8.
Hit/redouble might change the plays for doubling on 9.
Redouble 4 times = some crazy standard deviation though. Not sure about it's effect on playing at low TCs. Redoubling 4 times to get a 6 card 21 sounds interesting.
Dealer win ties is very very very bad. I'm guessing it's enough to warrant not to play this game at all.

Influence of the count is still the same. High counts = more pontoons(although dealer pontoon will now beat you) and dealer busts.
Low counts = dealer killing you with ties/not busting. Multi-card hands don't happen often enough.

Kat could sim the rules for you, but I'm reckoning the dealer win ties is sufficient reason for her not to.

> Is there any website with pontoon variants?
> my example:

> 6D
> S17
> no hole card, ENHC
> only 1 card on split aces, AX is only 21 after split
> double 4 times possible, but if you already have 4
> cards you can only double hard 12 or more. free card
> on 4 card 11 or less.
> hit after double possible (i.e. take card without
> double again)
> pontoon pays 2/1, looses against dealer pontoon
> dealer wins ties
> any 5 card trick pays 3/2 at once, before dealer takes
> a second card
> dealer does not benefit from 5 card trick
> player can hit or stand when (s)he wants, i.e. need
> not hit 14 or less (as in the example on the page of
> Wizzard of odds)
> no surrender

> can anyone tell me where i can find anything about
> such a game

> What influence has the count at such a game. for
> example the propability of a 5 card trick goes up at
> negative counts. what is the final efffect of positive
> and negative counts?

[Ikipiros]

I think you are refering to the game of Pontoon played in certain Eastern European countries. The game that is played with normall 52 card decks.
Not to be confused with Australian Pontoon (called Spanish 21 in US) played with 48 card decks (no tens)
You will find a lot of info in this website on Australian Pontoon but none for the game you are referring.

The game you are referring is as far as I know completely unplayable. The reason been the Dealer Win Ties. It is a major disadvantage and the other positive rules (ie pontoon, Redouble, 5 card charlie etc) do not compensate enough.
I remember doing an Expected value computation for this game (or similar) and it had a big off the top disadvantage. Unfortunately I cannot find my computations to tell exactly how bad it is.
Counting is not enough to beat the game.

[Dog Hand]

Ikipiros and Paolo,

Click the link below to see the Basic Strategy and house edge for two versions of Pontoon. The house edge is around 0.40%, which leads me to think this game (when dealt from a shoe: not when shuffled every round) may be susceptible to card counting.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

Pontoon at Wizard of Odds

[Paolo]

> Ikipiros and Paolo,

> Click the link below to see the Basic Strategy and
> house edge for two versions of Pontoon. The house edge
> is around 0.40%, which leads me to think this game
> (when dealt from a shoe: not when shuffled every
> round) may be susceptible to card counting.

> Hope this helps!

> Dog Hand

Thanks for answering!
indeed it is the game played in sevferal european countries. fine point: i made an error: only 3 doubles possible, if you have 5 cards without exceeding 21 you are already paid 3:2 on the total doubled or reredoubled bet. (Li: in this case this does not kill the redoubles, it is an advantage).unfortunatedly you cannot reredouble with 4 cards and 11 or less, i.e. you get only a 5th card and are paid your tripled ordoubled and rehit hand 3:2. you can only re/redouble a stiff. i think you should reredouble precisely 15 or less and just hit 16. because you have a 6/13 propability to get the five card trick and 7/13 to bust, this gives you an EV of 2/13 because of the 3/2 payment. it is not a small difference that you cannot reredouble 11 or less, i think it makes more than 1% difference in EV. maybe you should always hit 4 card hard 17, but i have no table with the EVs here at this moment.

different to the rules in Wizard of odds you can stand on any total of your hand, this may bbe again an advantage, but i do not know how big. better than in Wizard of odds is, that you are always paid a 5 card trick, no matter if dealer has one, too or if dealer makes pontoon.

but i still cannot calculate it acuratedly.

[Ikipiros]

The Wizzard analyses a game where the Dealer does not show his Upcard.
I have never played Pontoon but when I saw it I assumed that the Dealer shows his upcard like BJ. I have checked an Eastern European casino's website which analyses their rules of Pontoon which clearly states that the Dealer shows an Upcard.
So does the Dealer show an Upcard or Not?

Just doing some very quick Calculations for Expected values:
(some figure from Wizzard and some other estimates)
ENHC 6 Decks Ev (no Surrender)-0.51%
Player Loses Ties -8.86%
Pontoon Pays 2:1 +2.27%
Five Card Automatic Win 2.19%
(wizzard says 1.46 for even money, so 1.46% x3/2=2.19%)
Double with 3 or more cards 0.70%
(I know the extra Ev for Tripling is around 0.40%-0.45%. I play a normal BJ game where you can double again after a double and my figure is pretty accurate. A rough estimate will bring this 0.40% to 0.70%)

Total Ev upto here -4.21%

Now, I know I missed some things, namely:
- The 3:2 effect on 5 card winning hands which would win anyway (the 1.46% of wizzard is for say a 5 card 18 beating a dealer 19, but there is also extra payout for a 5 card 20 beating a dealer 17 not included in this comput.)
- The Ev of Hitting after Doubling
- The 5 card effect on ties (ie reduces the -8.86%)
- The 5 card 3:2 payout on Doubled Hands.

Now somehow I cannot see this -4.21% dropping below -1% if I include these effects
Of course we need a full Combinatorial Analysis or Simulation to do it. I have CVDATA but it cannot handle many of the rules including Tripling etc.

[paolo]

dealer shows definitively his upcard and you can play it like blackjack. it is difficult to calculate, i estimate the effect that you cannot re-re-double a 4 card hand with a total of 11 or less at least 1.5% in EV. my problem is: small details can change a lot of EV. i cannot yet simulate it. one more effect is: 5 card trick beats dealer AX (it pays at once, dealer does not check for BJ) and dealer does not benefit of a 5 card trick, different to the game in Wizard of odds. but player pontoon looses against dealer pontoon. different to normal blackjack, the only unloosable hand is a 5 card trick, although it pays less than a pontoon.

> The Wizzard analyses a game where the Dealer does not
> show his Upcard.
> I have never played Pontoon but when I saw it I
> assumed that the Dealer shows his upcard like BJ. I
> have checked an Eastern European casino's website
> which analyses their rules of Pontoon which clearly
> states that the Dealer shows an Upcard.
> So does the Dealer show an Upcard or Not?

> Just doing some very quick Calculations for Expected
> values:
> (some figure from Wizzard and some other estimates)
> ENHC 6 Decks Ev (no Surrender)-0.51%
> Player Loses Ties -8.86%
> Pontoon Pays 2:1 +2.27%
> Five Card Automatic Win 2.19%
> (wizzard says 1.46 for even money, so 1.46%
> x3/2=2.19%)
> Double with 3 or more cards 0.70%
> (I know the extra Ev for Tripling is around
> 0.40%-0.45%. I play a normal BJ game where you can
> double again after a double and my figure is pretty
> accurate. A rough estimate will bring this 0.40% to
> 0.70%)

> Total Ev upto here -4.21%

> Now, I know I missed some things, namely:
> - The 3:2 effect on 5 card winning hands which would
> win anyway (the 1.46% of wizzard is for say a 5 card
> 18 beating a dealer 19, but there is also extra payout
> for a 5 card 20 beating a dealer 17 not included in
> this comput.)
> - The Ev of Hitting after Doubling
> - The 5 card effect on ties (ie reduces the -8.86%)
> - The 5 card 3:2 payout on Doubled Hands.

> Now somehow I cannot see this -4.21% dropping below
> -1% if I include these effects
> Of course we need a full Combinatorial Analysis or
> Simulation to do it. I have CVDATA but it cannot
> handle many of the rules including Tripling etc.

[Ikipiros]

Can you tell me in which countries you see this game and if the rules are the same in all casinos that have it or they have small variations between different casinos and which are these variations