Relatively new counter here -- Few questions about systems/indexes/tables !

[doubledownfacedown]

Hi, I'm fairly new to card counting....well, kind of. Lately I've been using Hi-Lo in a 6D, DAS, LS, 75% pen, game. I can count 1 deck in 20-25 seconds consistently without error. I got a few questions/concerns:

1) The casino I go to is always packed during prime time hours, anywhere before 2 or even 3AM. The tables finally settle down around 3 or 4AM. Is it still worth playing a 6D game when I'm getting 30-45 hands an hour? Would it be better playing once a week between 3AM-10AM on say, a Saturday (when I'm not busy)? At this time I could (hopefully) play 1v1 against the dealer. My other option would be throwing chips on another player's hand (when there's a good count) at the double-deck table. The DD table is usually not too crowded and gets less retarded red-chip-ploppies at the 6D table.

2) When I've been playing lately, it seems like the deck is ALWAYS negative. It usually hovers around minus-8 to minus-2 RC or so...might go up to a positive-4 for one or two hands then drop back down. This is almost every shoe. Then one time per night (between 4 and 6 hour session), the count will get really really high. I'd say the TC is usually around a +6 to a +10 during these shoes for the entire shoe.....I up my bet a good amount (1 unit to 8 or so units). It seems I lose these hands more often than not. =\

3) I've been looking at different systems, and there are a few that I really like....but I don't want to learn them if they aren't the best thing for the game I'll be playing. (ie: Some systems are better for DD games, while other systems are better for 6D games, etc.). What systems would you guys recommend for 6D games, and what system would you recommend for DD games? The only thing I'd rather stay away from is a side-count....but if you recommend it, I can give it a shot.

4) Is it possible to create a strategy chart with index plays from a simulator or a program? I've done my fair share of hunting around on the internet, but I've yet to find good quality information (ex: http://www.qfit.com/blackjack-strategy.htm gave me some really weird systems. It gave me Wong Halves @ 100, but that also seems fairly difficult to learn...and HiLo full indexes@96.)


PS: I love math and blackjack...and I'm not scared of a challenge....I just don't want to do something that would be ridiculous overkill for something that'd just slow me down in counting and make my brain hurt. I got a headache the first few times I was counting HiLo for a 4 or 5 hour period...but after a few sessions it became super easy and I find myself counting without even thinking about it.


Any and all information/help/thoughts/etc. is welcome!

[paymypush]

Counting down a deck in your home under ideal conditions is fine. Can you count two tables at once in a live casino?

The DD game depends on the rules, penetration and heat. It is also the last place I'd be throwing chips on another player's hand. Think about the potential problems from both the pit and the other player.

I sometimes hesitate to call an inexperienced player a ploppy and I certainly don't consider them retarded. Even with mistakes, their house edge is lower than most casino games. I love ploppys because they work for me in different ways.

Is your max bet 8 units? At +6 you max bet should be out and in shoe games it should be at least double that.

If the shoe seems like it is always negative, it's more likely a case of selective memory and small sample size. Don't read too much into it.

There's nothing wrong with Hi-Lo combined with wonging and index play. It gets the job done. If you become bored with it or want a tiny increase in profits you can always advance from there.

The question of hands per hour depends on your goals. A serious counter would not play 30-45 hands per hour but a comp hustler would.

[doubledownfacedown]

Counting down a deck in your home under ideal conditions is fine. Can you count two tables at once in a live casino?

The DD game depends on the rules, penetration and heat. It is also the last place I'd be throwing chips on another player's hand. Think about the potential problems from both the pit and the other player.

I sometimes hesitate to call an inexperienced player a ploppy and I certainly don't consider them retarded. Even with mistakes, their house edge is lower than most casino games. I love ploppys because they work for me in different ways.

Rules and pen are same for the 6D and DD games -- 75pen LS DAS resplit 4x. And there isn't any heat for counting...but th dealer & pits always push people to keep playing. Really hard to Wong out without people/dealer getting mad. Half the time I'll just sit at the table and count (without playing).

Is your max bet 8 units? At +6 you max bet should be out and in shoe games it should be at least double that.

If the shoe seems like it is always negative, it's more likely a case of selective memory and small sample size. Don't read too much into it.

Yeah it's 1:8. But since there's little heat, I should probably make that 1:12 or 1:16 spread.

And good point on the selective memory. I guess I just get mad when I go through 5 or 10 shoes and I haven't even had a 4unit bet out yet =\

There's nothing wrong with Hi-Lo combined with wonging and index play. It gets the job done. If you become bored with it or want a tiny increase in profits you can always advance from there.

Its really hard to Wong out because dealer and people always get flustered when I try to sit out (the "card rotation" gets messed up). And it's so busy I can't just go to a new table.



An idea I had is that I could just start back-counting or throw chips on my friend's hands. I'm not worried about heat since I play red chips, and many dealers have said they don't kick out counters here..and yeah.

I was thinking the KO system might be good for back-counting?

Any other systems that I should think about or look into?

[paymypush]

I'm wondering why a juicy DD with no heat gets less play than an average 6 deck game. Are you sure you didn't leave something out?

[TheBalanceOfJudgement]

And good point on the selective memory. I guess I just get mad when I go through 5 or 10 shoes and I haven't even had a 4unit bet out yet =\

As they say, Blackjack is a game of patience. As it turns out, iCountNTrack did the math about a week ago and it turns out that time spent backcounting waiting for a good count is NOT wasted time - it significantly increases your EV and actually increases your average $won/hour. Knowing that makes me feel way differently about waiting around for an hour for a good shoe. I do wish the tables around here were laid out such that I could count two at once.

Its really hard to Wong out because dealer and people always get flustered when I try to sit out (the "card rotation" gets messed up). And it's so busy I can't just go to a new table.

An idea I had is that I could just start back-counting or throw chips on my friend's hands. I'm not worried about heat since I play red chips, and many dealers have said they don't kick out counters here..and yeah.

Yeah, one of my local shops has tables with GREAT rules but they really, really pressure you to play. Another shop has rules not quite as favorable but with no pressure and fewer players, meaning faster play and less diluted counts. That actually ends up being the better game, despite the rules. I'm learning that rules are only part of the picture... there's alot that goes into finding a playable game.

I was thinking the KO system might be good for back-counting?

I use KO but not because I think it's better for backcounting... why?

[doubledownfacedown]

My friend plays two hands of 50, and I'll just throw 5 or 10 on.

I figure the HiLo system is better if you're always playing at the table since you have many different bet sizes (12/4/6/8/20 units etc.), but in the KO you have your little bet or your high bet (once you hit that threshold count).

What would you normally do in an 88v10 situation (when the table is hot)? Surrender? Surely you'll bust on a hit, and get laughed at for surrendering (not that it matters...but it doesn't look good surrender 8,8).

I'm wondering why a juicy DD with no heat gets less play than an average 6 deck game. Are you sure you didn't leave something out?

Same rules, only difference is the 6D is 5 and DD is 25 or 50 minimum. And there's same amoun of tables of DD as there is 6D....I think the minimum drives away some players.

[doubledownfacedown]

I always surrender 88 v T. I use a different count.

I see. But if my friend and I are using the same strategy, since index plays aren't that huge of a deal. I'm just the one counting...he's just playing like a normal player, but if I tell him to do something else (an index play) than normal basic strategy, he listens to me.

But my biggest question/concern for this thread was asking for help on choosing a good/better system (even though it might only be better by a 0.1%). I used this: http://qfit.com/blackjack-strategy.htm, which was nice to see. But then again, that's just one opinion, and am hoping for more.

I am:
Great with fractions, decent with deck estimation, don't really like side-counts (but I can learn how to do it), I can memorize index-plays decently well, but I'm not going to memorize any more than 20.

The response it gave me:

100 Revere point count
98 wong halves
97 hi lo full indexes
96 revere point count i18
95 KO
94 Uston SS
94 zen count
93 unb. zen 11
93 canfield master
93 red seven
92 omega ii no side count
92 omega ii with side count
91 hi lo
...and more



Soooo....with the information I've given about my "counting/math skills", and the games I play 6D DAS LS H17 3:2BJ split4x DOA or back-counting a DD with same rules....which systems would you guys recommend? Or any systems that I should stay away from?

[AussiePlayer]

If that's what you're after, start with Norm's FELT count, it's a simplified version of Revere Point Count. As you get more proficient you can add more indicies.

[doubledownfacedown]

PE referes to Playing Efficiency, right. (I'm only assuming Playing Efficieny referes to how well you play your hand (ie indexes?).) And you want high PE in a DD (or low-deck #) shoes because the removal of each card changes your edge more so than the removal of cards in an 8deck shoe. (ie: 32 aces to 31 aces is practically the same [8 deck], but going from 4 aces to 3 aces [single deck] is a more significant change ?)

Wouldn't you also want to have a good BE (betting efficiency) in a DD game since it's tough to Wong out during bad counts, and you can't exactly back-count in a DD game since you have to play the first hand to play the remaining hands? I know I can back count given my circumstances, but I only do that because I dont have a BR where I can bet 25$ units. But in the future when I have a higher BR or go to a different casino with lower min bet, I wouldn't be back counting.

[a5teve]

Ref KO system. Read the book again and check out the KO PREFERD strategy. It is not just a small and bigg bet system. It works and I have been playing it profitably in the UK and VEGAS BABY DD, 4D and 6D games, for the last few years.

[doubledownfacedown]

So I did a little poking around, and I noticed that the Zen count has high PE & high BC, (as well as IC). Is a proper betting schedule for this 1 unit per +1 in the TC? (ie: TC = +2 then bet 2 units. If TC = +3 then bet 3 units. TC = +10 bet 10 units.)

And are these the proper index plays for the Zen Count: http://blackjackforumonline.com/cont...nt_Indices.htm ? Does this mean I hit my 16 against a dealer's 2 if the TC is -16 or lower (-16, -17, -18...etc). ? Can I just kind of ignore all the spreaded-out TC ones (like -16 or +16) ? Should I just remember between -8 to +8 ?

[First Normal Form]

You could stay with Hi-Lo and be very happy. If you really want to choose a little bit stronger count for your situation, yes, you want the Zen. Two-level that plays well in both DD and shoe and doesn't require a side count - this fits your stated needs like a glove. Your reasons are the reasons many others have chosen Zen. For many (probably myself included!), the question to move to a 2-level count sometimes is more like 'permission'. The real reason you might choose to go to Zen, is that you are going to keep nagging yourself until you do . In reality, this step shouldn't be your primary concern, but it doesn't have to be. If you want it, go get it. It's not outrageous or silly to do so.

Yes, you should learn the less extreme indices first. Those linked indices look fine. Don't use _Blackbelt in Blackjack_'s quarter deck TC indices. Google for 'blackjack Catch-22 strategy index' and learn the indices for those plays. Google 'blackjack late surrender Fab 4 strategy index' and learn those LS indices. This is the cream of the crop. Keep adding more, less useful indices at your leisure until you get bored, or you hit about 50-80. In about this order: Favor learning hard hit/stands and hard doubles that don't have extreme indices. Favor positive indices over negative indices. Probably learn splits last, if at all.

[Gamblor]

You could stay with Hi-Lo and be very happy. If you really want to choose a little bit stronger count for your situation, yes, you want the Zen. Two-level that plays well in both DD and shoe and doesn't require a side count - this fits your stated needs like a glove.

Yep, PE is not nearly as at important as BC in shoe games.