Mr.Pro: Shuffle Tracking

[Mr.Pro]

Hi there,

I would be gratefull if someone could help me on this one. At a casino close to my home town they have a very simple shuffle. They use 6 decks, cut off is about 1.5 decks sometimes 2. After the cut card appears the round is not completed so some cards are left on the table during the shuffle.

The dealer tops the cut offs (putting them on top of the discards) and then breaks the pile into two stacks (each roughly 3 decks) the dealer then makes 1/2 deck grabs from each stack some dealers make 3/4 deck or even one deck grabs and shuffle them together. The shuffled grabs are then placed one on top of the other to build the final stack.

What would be the best way of shuffle tracking this game? Bearing in mind I'm playing a 3 level count with a side count of aces.

Kind regards,

Mr.Pro

[Gamesplayer]

You don't seem to be a shuffle tracker but I will answer you for your info anyway.

This shuffle consist of 4-6 segments, 4 if the dealer grabs 3/4 decks.

Get a piece of paper and draw the stack of six decks of discards. Write A, B, C, D on 4 segments starting from top. Cutoff is always A because it is placed on top.

For the next shoe A always interlace with C, B with D.

So start of game, count each 3/4 decks, the first segment is D, it is the bottom of discard. Memorise the count for D, continue counting, get count for C, and B, at the end, reverse the sign of count and you get A.

So pre-shuffle it is A, B, C, D. A is top.

After shuffle it is always B+D, A+C. BD is top.

You add segment A with C for bottom of shoe, and B+D for top of shoe.

The segment with negative count is good. Remember it is the richness of 10, Aces which makes it good.

Since you use Ace- side count, the Segment with good count and a few Aces is much better than the segment with no Ace but with lots of 10's. Due to the bj bonus.

If you don't understand anything or need more info, email me.

[Norm Wattenberger]

Click on the link below

Simple four grab R&R

[Mr.Pro]

> You don't seem to be a shuffle tracker but I
> will answer you for your info anyway.

> This shuffle consist of 4-6 segments, 4 if
> the dealer grabs 3/4 decks.

> Get a piece of paper and draw the stack of
> six decks of discards. Write A, B, C, D on 4
> segments starting from top. Cutoff is always
> A because it is placed on top.

> For the next shoe A always interlace with C,
> B with D.

> So start of game, count each 3/4 decks, the
> first segment is D, it is the bottom of
> discard. Memorise the count for D, continue
> counting, get count for C, and B, at the
> end, reverse the sign of count and you get
> A.

> So pre-shuffle it is A, B, C, D. A is top.

> After shuffle it is always B+D, A+C. BD is
> top.

> You add segment A with C for bottom of shoe,
> and B+D for top of shoe.

> The segment with negative count is good.
> Remember it is the richness of 10, Aces
> which makes it good.

> Since you use Ace- side count, the Segment
> with good count and a few Aces is much
> better than the segment with no Ace but with
> lots of 10's. Due to the bj bonus.

> If you don't understand anything or need
> more info, email me.

Thanks for replying and the info. Yes, this casino is in the UK where I live. And I'm not a shuffle tracker but I'm determined to become one as the games over here are tough to beat with traditional card counting only.

I have some questions. So even though I'm keeping track of each segment I keep the running count going until the end of the shoe. For instance the first 1.5 decks are dealt out(segment D) the running count is say -21, I memorise this and continue counting, segment C is now in the discard pile and the running count is
-33 so I memorise -12 for segment C and so on.

After the shuffle I will effectively be playing the best half of the shoe, is that right? . If B &
D are 10 and ace rich I would cut the 6 decks in half bringing that segment to the front of the shoe. And if segment A & C are rich I could cut say one deck from the back and play the first deck of the shoe at table minimums and the next three at big bets. Also, how would I assess my advantage ? would I use a true count devisor, in the count I'm using I devide by the number of half decks remaining. Would I devide the count by 6 off the top in order to arrive at a true count for betting purposes. Does it make much difference if the grab sizes are slightly less or more? And finally have you found shuffle tracking
to be far superior to traditional counting which is what I have read?

Thank you again for your response.

Regards,

Mr.Pro

[bill baggins]

What you are talking about is mapping a shuffle. This is essential so that you have an idea of which segments will be intermixed and where they will roughly be before the next cut.

In practice (I at least) do not try to keep a running count for each segment. What you are essentially looking for are largish fluctuations in the running count, especially when these fluctuations result in a falling count (i.e. -ve 10/Ace rich segment/s). You need to develop the ability to 'eyeball' this 10/Ace rich segment (mentally marking the segment in the discard pile) so that you can follow it through the shuffle. Ideally you will have a running count for the segment that it will be intermixed with. This is easier to obtain accurately (in your 2 stack shuffle) if your targetted segment/s come in the first half of the shoe as you can then make a note of the running count for the segment that it will be mixed with in the second half.

I would not rely on your shuffle map for where the cards will be in the next shoe. Verify where your tracked segment goes and which cards it is mixed with visually. This is especially important in the UK where dealers are generally at the lower end of the skill (and speed) spectrum and are therefore less consistent in their shuffles (size of stacks, cut-off placement and size of grabs etc.).

To estimate your advantage;

If you have a running count on your tracked segment and the segment it is interleafed with then just add the two together and do a true count conversion for that combined segment - bet into it according to your TC and adjust this for that segment as the cards come out.

If you only have a running count for your Ace/10 rich segment assume the +ve count is distributed evenly throughout the remainder of the shoe. So if you have a 1 deck segment with a RC of -10, assume this is mixed with a 1 deck segment of +2 (+10 for remainder of shoe divided by 5 (decks)). You would therefore have a RC of -8 for your tracked 2 deck segment i.e. TC of +4.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Bill B.

[Paddyboy]

Bill,I know of 4 deck games that some dealers use the shuffle used above,would you recommend dividing the decks into A,B,C,D.Lets say A is bottom of dicard tray and D=undealt discards,in this casino they always put D on top of the dealt discards
They then make 2 piles,AB and CD.So B and D get shuffled together and shuffled deck is now B mixed with D,A mixed with C,so if you know that B and D contained a lot of tens,aces I would cut as close to bottom of deck as possible to keep BD close to the top.

For your method of tracking a particular slug wont you still have to know the count in other the deck segments aswell?

Is there much info on shuffle tracking in BlackBelt in Bj or should i get GeorgeCs shuffle tracking book?

[bill baggins]

In your example you would cut midway through the shoe as this is where B+D would start. In practice you would probably be 'eyeballing' slugs that are less than a deck in size.

In an ideal world you would want to know the RC of all of the segments that will be married during the shuffle. You can then play the next shoe with absolute knowledge. However, this is a less than ideal world. Personally I just look for juicy slugs and the cards they will be married with. If you have knowledge of one or more sections of a shoe you can infer the count in other segments. Again, personally I think you are unlikely to be able to follow (or find) more than 2 worthwhile slugs in any particular shoe. In some the RC will not vary wildly enough to give you anything worth tracking. In others good slugs will be married with bad.

Regarding literature, I found the BJ forum shuffle tracking series to be very informative. I haven't read George Cs book.

Regards,

Bill B.

[Mr.Pro]

> What you are talking about is mapping a
> shuffle. This is essential so that you have
> an idea of which segments will be intermixed
> and where they will roughly be before the
> next cut.

> In practice (I at least) do not try to keep
> a running count for each segment. What you
> are essentially looking for are largish
> fluctuations in the running count,
> especially when these fluctuations result in
> a falling count (i.e. -ve 10/Ace rich
> segment/s). You need to develop the ability
> to 'eyeball' this 10/Ace rich segment
> (mentally marking the segment in the discard
> pile) so that you can follow it through the
> shuffle. Ideally you will have a running
> count for the segment that it will be
> intermixed with. This is easier to obtain
> accurately (in your 2 stack shuffle) if your
> targetted segment/s come in the first half
> of the shoe as you can then make a note of
> the running count for the segment that it
> will be mixed with in the second half.

> I would not rely on your shuffle map for
> where the cards will be in the next shoe.
> Verify where your tracked segment goes and
> which cards it is mixed with visually. This
> is especially important in the UK where
> dealers are generally at the lower end of
> the skill (and speed) spectrum and are
> therefore less consistent in their shuffles
> (size of stacks, cut-off placement and size
> of grabs etc.).

> To estimate your advantage;

> If you have a running count on your tracked
> segment and the segment it is interleafed
> with then just add the two together and do a
> true count conversion for that combined
> segment - bet into it according to your TC
> and adjust this for that segment as the
> cards come out.

> If you only have a running count for your
> Ace/10 rich segment assume the +ve count is
> distributed evenly throughout the remainder
> of the shoe. So if you have a 1 deck segment
> with a RC of -10, assume this is mixed with
> a 1 deck segment of +2 (+10 for remainder of
> shoe divided by 5 (decks)). You would
> therefore have a RC of -8 for your tracked 2
> deck segment i.e. TC of +4.

> Hope this helps,

> Regards,

> Bill B.

Thanks Bill thats clarified a few points.

Reagrds,

Mr.Pro

[Bettie]

> Is there much info on shuffle tracking in
> BlackBelt in Bj or should i get GeorgeCs
> shuffle tracking book?

There is an entire chapter on shuffle tracking in BB in BJ with detailed info on how to map a shuffle, and as the book is down to it's last 20 copies, I would buy one now. Unfortunately, the BJF shuffle tracking series is out of print, but BB in BJ and ST for Beginners is the way to go.

Bettie

[bill baggins]

> Unfortunately, the BJF shuffle tracking
> series is out of print, but BB in BJ and
> ST for Beginners is the way to go.

> Bettie

In that case I have a copy of the BJF ST series going for only $5K or ?3K !

Supply and demand.

Regards,

Bill B.

[Don Schlesinger]

... of one of my favorite jokes:

Guy goes into a liquor store and asks the owner, "How much for a bottle of Johnny Walker Red?" Owner says, "Twelve bucks." Guy says, "Twelve bucks? That's ridiculous. The guy down the street sells if for eight bucks." Owner says, "So, why don't you buy it there?" Guy says, "He's out of it right now." Owner replies, "Well, when I'm out of it, I sell it for SIX dollars!" :-)

Don

[Curious]

> If you only have a running count for your
> Ace/10 rich segment assume the +ve count is
> distributed evenly throughout the remainder
> of the shoe. So if you have a 1 deck segment
> with a RC of -10, assume this is mixed with
> a 1 deck segment of +2 (+10 for remainder of
> shoe divided by 5 (decks)). You would
> therefore have a RC of -8 for your tracked 2
> deck segment i.e. TC of +4.

Correct, but you're not saying how you should play within the slug. Would you use 2 as the number of decks remaining?

Curious

[bill baggins]

> Correct, but you're not saying how you
> should play within the slug. Would you use 2
> as the number of decks remaining?

> Curious

That's why the TC would be plus 4 (8 divided by 2).

Regards,

Bill B.