Is AP etiquette dead?

[Freightman]

I’m playing in a coastal city where the AP community seems to have mushroomed. One AP joined my table with the subtlety of a brick shit house. He decided to Wong out at a negative count - I gave him shit which didn’t seem to bother him - absolutely no professional courtesy. Then his buddy joined in. They played in complete unison and harmony and I decided to play at a different ramp which was fine. A ploppy joined the table. At a point in time, the count dived to about -9. Bonzo and Horace simply wonged out - I simply said - I’m not putting up with this shit and the poor ploppy said he didn’t want to play alone.

Play died while I cashed out and nobody made any attempt to play. They actually started a new deal. I almost made reference to disciples of Collin Jones. If either of you assholes read this - learn some fucking manners.

[Gramazeka]

You should start splitting tens at the minimum bet constantly until the APs leave the table.

[G Man]

Wong out games is the modern way of playing BJ, at least for me and I don't care what others are thinking of it whenever I use it.I am a pro.
However, what is unethical is hitting another counter table ! Except for a very few exceptions, when you notice an AP at work, leave him alone, period.
You mention the mad dogs of CJ... At first I didn't like them because they are so obvious that it becomes stupid. They are young and most of them do not care about any longevity. They spread like crazy ! Remember that sentence, we will come back to it... The new generation mentality: Make as much as you can from BJ, then move to other things like selling underpants on TikTok. They absolutely do not care about the game of BJ, they only want the Benjamin.

Now, I LOVE THEM ! While it is far from pleasant to see them anywhere near your table, they are the new reference for the poor casino management to "what a counter looks like" !
These mad dogs will give us (older players using some type of camo) enough playing hours to play till the end of our life :-)
Just make sure not to play with them, they are the baits. Unfortunately, a friend of mine is now barred left and right after spending an hour at the same table of one of these guys and he's now listed everywhere by association. Sad but true.

Use the baits, let them get barred and keep using a much smaller spread in Wong out games. You will live a long and pleasant AP life.

[21forme]

It was killed by Colin and his cult. They advocate slash and burn - play till backoff and take no prisoners.

[Freightman]

You should start splitting tens at the minimum bet constantly until the APs leave the table.

I strongly considered it

[Freightman]

However, what is unethical is hitting another counter table ! Except for a very few exceptions, when you notice an AP at work, leave him alone, period.

Agree

because they are so obvious that it becomes stupid.

3 counters taking insurance at the same time - had to get away

These mad dogs will give us (older players using some type of camo) enough playing hours to play till the end of our life :-)

Ive had a long successful career - maybe a dozen or so 15 back offs - rounds played per backoff are enormous

interestingly enough - observation only - I’m guessing my EV is every bit as good as these (you’re right) kids playing a very different and nuanced style of game - though difficult to do with these clowns.

[moo321]

It was killed by Colin and his cult. They advocate slash and burn - play till backoff and take no prisoners.

And a lot of the "old guard" need to acknowledge that this is a valid way of getting the money. There are literally 10 times as many casinos as there were before, just in the US. If you keep moving, it's very hard for them to catch you.


There are games that should be protected due to their value and longevity potential if attacked in slightly more subtle ways. Counting is not one of them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a slash and burn approach. It's not generally how I play, but it works.

[moo321]

I’m playing in a coastal city where the AP community seems to have mushroomed. One AP joined my table with the subtlety of a brick shit house. He decided to Wong out at a negative count - I gave him shit which didn’t seem to bother him - absolutely no professional courtesy. Then his buddy joined in. They played in complete unison and harmony and I decided to play at a different ramp which was fine. A ploppy joined the table. At a point in time, the count dived to about -9. Bonzo and Horace simply wonged out - I simply said - I’m not putting up with this shit and the poor ploppy said he didn’t want to play alone.

Play died while I cashed out and nobody made any attempt to play. They actually started a new deal. I almost made reference to disciples of Collin Jones. If either of you assholes read this - learn some fucking manners.

They may not have known you were counting. I've had guys who played such a "subtle" game that I went through multiple positive shoes with them before I realized they were irritated that I was raising my bets. I left, but it's like oh, I'm sorry I didn't see you spreading 1-6 in red on a shoe game.


I don't see anything rude or unprofessional about blatant wongouts. That's just the modern game.


Professional courtesy does dictate that you try to avoid other counters. But I don't consider it a requirement. If you see a hole card on a game that some clueless guy is counting, you have every right to play it. And if one dealer is going around the 1.5 deck notch and putting the cut card at half a deck in a casino that's clueless about counting, I might join your table.

[moo321]

There's another issue, which is how to handle APs at your table. Ignoring them is always an option. You have no idea if this person is a psycho. There are stories of APs ratting other ones out because of personal disagreements.


You can also subtly let them know you're at the table if you think they didn't realize. Something like "hey, you seem like you're pretty smart" drops the hint without making it obvious to others at the table.


I've seen APs do absolutely ridiculous things. One time I was at a casino that didn't spend much effort watching a pretty juicy game. So I was using what he considered a "big spread" (I think it was 1-12 on a double deck) and he got mad and literally said "you're being pretty blatant with the card-counting." As if openly discussing the fact that both of us were counting was not being blatant... This is NOT how you handle this kind of situation. Ever.

[G Man]

If you see a hole card on a game that some clueless guy is counting, you have every right to play it.

This has nothing to do because you won't raise any of your bets in unison.

[DSchles]

You should start splitting tens at the minimum bet constantly until the APs leave the table.

I'm assuming that, by minimum bet, you mean the count is negative. In that case, you aren't going to chase any counters from the table by splitting tens. By eating the cards in negative counts, they'd probably want to thank you! I know I would. Think about it.

Don

[DSchles]

And a lot of the "old guard" need to acknowledge that this is a valid way of getting the money.

So is robbing a bank. Doesn't make it any less wrong or stupid.

There are literally 10 times as many casinos as there were before, just in the US.

Right. And, "before," you didn't have corporate ownership of casinos where, once you get pulled up in one place, your photo is, within 60 seconds, in the surveillance rooms of the 10 other casinos, or more, all over the country, that belong to the chain.

Don

[bjarg]

So is robbing a bank. Doesn't make it any less wrong or stupid.



Right. And, "before," you didn't have corporate ownership of casinos where, once you get pulled up in one place, your photo is, within 60 seconds, in the surveillance rooms of the 10 other casinos, or more, all over the country, that belong to the chain.

Don

But even like that, is it still a profitable endeavor in the US?