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Thread: How many indeces to use

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    How many indeces to use

    Arnold Snyders zen totals approx 70 changes to consider, I have a problem with the total of them and was wondering which ones I could eliminate with the smallest or no effect on zen"s winning strategy. Thank you for all replies. I have a new computer and will be contacting the 2 people I have made promises concerning mailing of certain systems, please be a little patient. I am still working things out on the new beast.
    blackcat

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    Senior Member moo321's Avatar
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    Blackjack Attack has a section on which indexes are more important.


    Personally, I don't think it makes sense for the professional player to not use full indexes. It might only be a 5-10% raise to your earning potential, but how long does it take? A few hours? Most people would go to a weekend seminar to increase their salary 5-10%.
    The Cash Cow.

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    https://www.amazon.ca/Hi-Lo-Card-Cou.../dp/1944877622

    And the downloadable companion

    https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/shop...play-set-of-9/

    The book allows each player to decide when enough is enough when it comes to learning indices.

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    This post makes me laugh at myself. I remember running through practice drills to remember 140 some indice deviations. Stuff like -22 H15 vs 6. What an utter waste of my time and mental energy. I switched to the I18 and haven't noticed any major negative effect to my longterm results. I guess if I played mainly double deck taking the time to memeorize all those deviations would of had some value, but for a part time hobbyist playing shoe games no way was it productive.
    Last edited by UncleChoo; 02-04-2025 at 10:34 AM.

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    See BJA3, page 63, middle paragraph that starts with, "As for me, ..."

    Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    Blackjack Attack has a section on which indexes are more important.


    Personally, I don't think it makes sense for the professional player to not use full indexes. It might only be a 5-10% raise to your earning potential, but how long does it take? A few hours? Most people would go to a weekend seminar to increase their salary 5-10%.

    10% increase? No way is it that much , is it? If it were then definitely jump on all those extra indicies.


    Going from I-18 to "Sporty 40" or "Nifty 50" (as coined by Don) maybe gets you that extra 5% or so I believe. After that, you are looking at a bunch of fairly meaningless deviations that will rarely happen or make a difference.

    This stuff really depends on the individual. If it gets too confusing to have 150 deviations memorized then stay with the simple I-18 approach and don't worry about it. Efficiency and execution are important too.

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    A lot of those indice deviations are for ridiculous low negative counts. IMO if someone using say a level 2 system finds themselves at the table and not coneveniantly taking a leak when the count is -20 with half the shoe to go, they have much bigger problems to worry about then deciding how many deviations to memorize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidecount View Post
    10% increase? No way is it that much, is it? If it were then definitely jump on all those extra indices.
    Going from I-18 to "Sporty 40" or "Nifty 50" (as coined by Don) maybe gets you that extra 5% or so I believe. After that, you are looking at a bunch of fairly meaningless deviations that will rarely happen or make a difference.
    Dave and I wrote the book precisely so that you could get answers to questions such as the above for 2- and 6-deck games, with multiple levels of penetration, multiple spreads, and play-all or back-counting approaches. So, there simply isn't one answer to the question. But, if I'm giving just a single example, the scenario I prefer to illustrate is 4.5/6, S17, DAS, Play-All 1-12. The top 22 indices (Catch 22, but using T,T vs. 4 instead of r-a 10 vs. T) capture 91.57% of all the available edge from using strategy departures (this is Hi-Lo, of course). If you learn 28 more indices, to now have the "Nifty 50," you'll garner 98.39% of the total edge, so those next 28 give you 6.82% more edge. Finally, if you memorize all 117 indices, to capture 100% of the edge, learning those last 67 indices will give you the additional 1.61%, to get to 100%.

    So, as always, the decision to learn--or not learn-- more indices beyond the I18, Catch 22, or Nifty 50 lies solely with the user. We don't make recommendations; we just present the facts.

    Don
    Last edited by DSchles; 02-05-2025 at 09:09 AM.

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    Thanks for the exact numbers. Couldn't remember exactly and didn't have time to check. Really enjoyed the book. And those numbers are definite eye-openers. Less than 2% of playing efficiency value for all that effort likely isn't going to be worth it for most. Thanks, Don.

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    Senior Member moo321's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Dave and I wrote the book precisely so that you could get answers to questions such as the above for 2- and 6-deck games, with multiple levels of penetration, multiple spreads, and play-all or back-counting approaches. So, there simply isn't one answer to the question. But, if I'm giving just a single example, the scenario I prefer to illustrate is 4.5/6, S17, DAS, Play-All 1-12. The top 22 indices (Catch 22, but using T,T vs. 4 instead of r-a 10 vs. T) capture 91.57% of all the available edge from using strategy departures (this is Hi-Lo, of course). If you learn 28 more indices, to now have the "Nifty 50," you'll garner 98.39% of the total edge, so those next 28 give you 6.82% more edge. Finally, if you memorize all 117 indices, to capture 100% of the edge, learning those last 67 indices will give you the additional 1.61%, to get to 100%.

    So, as always, the decision to learn--or not learn-- more indices beyond the I18, Catch 22, or Nifty 50 lies solely with the user. We don't make recommendations; we just present the facts.

    Don
    For the professional player, a 1-2% raise is still probably $1000 a year. Every year.


    I can understand not doing this if you're using disposable big players and the like. I can even understand teaching a "counter's basic strategy" to them. But for the professional player, I don't think it makes sense to leave money on the table like that.


    I especially think it's wrong when people are talking about only using the top 18 or 22 indexes. Now we're talking thousands of dollars left on the table every year. And for what? Because you don't want to spend a few hours memorizing some numbers? I also don't know any professionals that only use the top 18 or 22 indexes. They all use many indexes, and a lot of them take the time to memorize the full set.
    The Cash Cow.

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    Using the full set actually decreases SCORE vs using the optimal set. Unless you don't care about risk, this should be a factor, even for some teams. I would argue that the indices which contribute to this are not worth learning anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    For the professional player, a 1-2% raise is still probably $1000 a year. Every year.


    I can understand not doing this if you're using disposable big players and the like. I can even understand teaching a "counter's basic strategy" to them. But for the professional player, I don't think it makes sense to leave money on the table like that.


    I especially think it's wrong when people are talking about only using the top 18 or 22 indexes. Now we're talking thousands of dollars left on the table every year. And for what? Because you don't want to spend a few hours memorizing some numbers? I also don't know any professionals that only use the top 18 or 22 indexes. They all use many indexes, and a lot of them take the time to memorize the full set.
    For the play all shoe player, you need to go to at least true -6. Double Deck which is far more volatile, more like true -12. Wong out only when practical.

    Now, to make up for a past grammatical transgression caught by you know who, a previous comment that negative indices will make you money should be replaced by negative indices will help you lose less money- which I suppose at the end of the day is tantamount to the same thing.

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    Point of clarification:
    1-2% addition to the value of the deviations is not the same as 1-2% additional EV. I think.

    Most of your value comes from bet spread. If you did none of the playing deviations but spread 1-16 you would still profit. You just wouldn't profit as much. It's not like you lose 100% of your total EV. You only lose 100% of the value that you would get from the strategy deviations.
    If you don't bet spread and just flat bet then the I-18 deviations maybe gets you from -0.4% to -0.25% or something. And then throwing in a bunch of additional plays maybe gets you to -0.22%.

    Just wanted to throw that out there when attempting to determine the value of the additional indicies. 1-2% extra value of the playing deviations I don't believe is the same as 1-2% addition to your total EV.

    Also, many of the extra deviations and super low negative count plays that aren't going to do a lot for you but CAN end up drawing suspicioun faster imo. There are enough floor people who are aware of hitting stiffs against bust cards in negative counts and how weird it is that I would usually prefer to avoid hitting a Hard 13 against a 6...and that's assuming I was still at the table when the count actually called for such a play. If you are smart, you wouldn't be in a position to make such a play in the first place unless it was some sort of special circumstance I guess. Of course, if your act is exceptional and you can get away with hitting 13 v. 6 and you can make it look like exactly the type of crazy thing you would do then that's even better. But that's a bit of a different topic and to me also somewhat runs contrary to the idea of recommending everyone should learn all indicies and use them at all times. I do think there are some other aspects worth considering.

    Additionally, without running the number or anything, it is my hunch that just one extra wong out or spreading 1-16.5 instead of 1-16 would more than make up the value of the extra 1.5% strategy deviations value.

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