Are there any books I can read on hole carding or threads here that I could read?

[Archvaldor]

As is often the case, I have no idea where you come up with such totally absurd claims about me or other folks here. Of course I do strongly believe that one should never publicly talk about a particular dealer.

You certainly gave off that impression in the Grosjean thread. You also didn't mention a single technique for actually finding loaders in your book which I presume was intended, it is a rather glaring omission since 90% of the barrier to successful hole-card play is actually locating a loader. I think you are trying a bit hard to be outraged here.

And as always, I avoid suggesting that winning is easy.

From your book "But if you do have this information legitimately, the gain in advantage can be very large. In fact, it is theoretically possible to obtain a SCORE over 10,000. ". If you look at the context of the surrounding paragraph there are none of the caveats there should be about the limitations of hole-carding. For those who are interested the lady in the youtube video I linked to gives a rather more balanced picture of the difficulties of finding loaders and exploiting them as a practical matter.

"And my book talks about the difference between theoretic EV and actual EV."

I can't see you mentioning the increased scouting time relative to most other ap, the generally fewer hands per hour, and the difficulties involved in getting hours against a specific dealer. When those are taken into consideration your global edge if not your SCORE is not that much better than counting.

[Norm]

You also didn't mention a single technique for actually finding loaders in your book which I presume was intended, it is a rather glaring omission since 90% of the difficulty is actually finding a loader.

Once again, I specifically will not talk about such things in public for reasons that should be obvious.

I think you are trying a bit hard to be outraged here.

This is the fourth time you have recently made claims about my personal feelings/motivations. If you made such disgusting comments about anyone else, you would have been banned.

it is theoretically possible to obtain a SCORE over 10,000. "

It is.

there are none of the caveats there should be about the limitations of hole-carding

I make numerous comments to that effect. Indeed, the most difficult time I had was in a chapter discussing in detail the difference between theory and practice. I make it a point in the book to constantly remind readers of this. And unlike other books, I talk about losing more than winning.

I can't see you mentioning the increased scouting time relative to most other ap, the generally fewer hands per hour, and the difficulties involved in getting hours against a specific dealer. When those are taken into consideration your edge if not your SCORE is not that much better than counting.

I specifically mention scouting time in a later chapter.

This is tiresome. You have long had a habit of belittling other people in the field, long before you came here. Unlike you, I will not speculate on the reasons.

[Archvaldor]

Once again, I specifically will not talk about such things in public for reasons that should be obvious.

.

Do you, or do you not, as I stated, somehow think the location of loaders is secret information or not? Yes or no.

You could at least make that clear so I know whether to post a link to the information the OP was requesting.

You have long had a habit of belittling other people in the field, long before you came here. Unlike you, I will not speculate on the reasons.

That is untrue. I spent a great deal of time when I was younger promoting your work and the work of other ap authors through various websites and personal recommendations. I didn't do this for any tangible financial or indirect personal reward. A small but significant part of your customer base comes directly or indirectly from me. I never expected nor received any kind of reciprocation for this obviously.

I do draw the line at overstating the power of methods like hole-carding or anything else that can potentially cause financial distress to new players. I'm not going to make an exception for you because of your reputation or whatever.

[Norm]

Do you, or do you not, as I stated, somehow think the location of loaders is secret information or not? Yes or no.

Hole-carders do not publicly disclose weak dealers.

I do draw the line at overstating the power of methods like hole-carding or anything else that can potentially cause financial distress to new players. I'm not going to make an exception for you because of your reputation or whatever.

I have spent decades doing the exact opposite. And I consider those that do what you claim low-life scammers. Yes I provide theoretic numbers as that is where one must start. Throughout the book I then explain that you will not experience those numbers. With HC, I detail the decrease required by cover, the decrease due to the fact you won't see every HC, and I have nine pages detailing partial HC which lowers advantage. These have a massive effect on edge. I also spend the time to explain that theoretic advantage is unattainable thusly:

Your “Real” Advantage

Most of the tables and performance comparisons in this book assume perfect play. However, there are many forces at play that can affect that advantage. Errors, cover betting, leaving at a good count because of heat, leaving at a good count because of low cash on hand, a back-counter entering your table and eating some of the good cards, tipping, throwing a few bucks in a slot machine for cover, expenses, variation in penetration at a table, missing dealer errors, etc. Expenses are of particular concern to a pro. Keep in mind that your “real advantage” may not be as good as your theoretical advantage, and work to minimize the difference. Don’t be fooled into thinking you enjoy the full advantage in the books.

Your “Real” Bankroll

Suppose you have a $10,000 bankroll. Suppose you lose half, decide this is not the game for you, and stop playing altogether. That may be the correct move. But, you never had a $10,000 bankroll in the first place if you completely stop after losing half. You had a $5,000 bankroll. The problem here is that any risk calculations that you made assuming the larger bankroll were incorrect. If you go through the exercise of making risk calculations, make certain that you use your “real bankroll” in those calculations.

I also state in the book:

I will say that I would never try to talk anyone into becoming a pro. It is difficult, often tedious, it involves a great deal of travel, you will find yourself dealing with unpleasant people, you may find yourself alone for long periods, and it is difficult to avoid paranoia. It ain’t the glamorous life in the movies. On the other hand, it makes a great hobby. And like many great hobbies, a profit is possible.

In the book I also give many examples of times I have lost. Unlike most books and ads on BJ, I do NOT try to paint a rosy picture. My software also includes playing errors, betting errors, dealer errors, cover, preferential shuffling, heat, negative effects of other players, and I never say that you will win. Indeed, I avoid using that word as a verb in my book, my documentation, and my sites. In fact, the home page of QFIT does not use the word once. Your comments are way, way off-base and the opposite of how I have acted in my 50 years in the AP field.
But then, you also stated here that I'm just a minimum wage programmer.

[southern_boy]

norm!! Hello )

[UncleChoo]

Hole-carders do not publicly disclose weak dealers.

In the book I also give many examples of times I have lost. Unlike most books and ads on BJ, I do NOT try to paint a rosy picture. My software also includes playing errors, betting errors, dealer errors, cover, preferential shuffling, heat, negative effects of other players, and I never say that you will win. Indeed, I avoid using that word as a verb in my book, my documentation, and my sites. In fact, the home page of QFIT does not use the word once. Your comments are way, way off-base and the opposite of how I have acted in my 50 years in the AP field.
But then, you also stated here that I'm just a minimum wage programmer.

Norm, just think of the sales boost you would get if you did do that. Start running banner ads all over the internet - "Are you facing financial troubles? Need a new job? Start training today to turn casinos into your personal ATM ..." J/K

[Norm]

I could make more money by adding progression systems to CVData as so often requested instead of advising those people not to waste money buying my software.

[Archvaldor]

Hole-carders do not publicly disclose weak dealers.

I asked a simple question which is: do you or do you not want the discussion of generic techniques relating to the location of loaders?

This information has gone public. It isn't secret any more. Frankly it was never that valuable anyway but I digress. I was trying to respect your wishes anyway and link to that public information though private message. For some reason you are complaining about that.

I have spent decades doing the exact opposite. And I consider those that do what you claim low-life scammers. Yes I provide theoretic numbers as that is where one must start. Throughout the book I then explain that you will not experience those numbers. With HC, I detail the decrease required by cover, the decrease due to the fact you won't see every HC, and I have nine pages detailing partial HC which lowers advantage. These have a massive effect on edge. I also spend the time to explain that theoretic advantage is unattainable thusly:

You mention some of the issues with hole-carding. You do not mention most of them. Namely the low frequency of opportunity, how to actually find such games , which most players will never encounter by their own efforts. You also do not mention the lower game speed, and the difficulty of getting hours in against a single loader. You discuss scouting time in generic terms relating to ap generally but not with regard to hole-carding specifically. This creates the impression that hc plays are way better than they actually are relative to everything else. It isn't subtle either, your SCORE of 10000 is off in practical terms by a factor of 10.

You need all of these things to be mentioned upfront in any discussion of hc.

This is a different issue from painting a "rosy picture" of ap. That's a very low benchmark to exceed.

But then, you also stated here that I'm just a minimum wage programmer.

You seem to have great difficulty with nuance. Not every comment is meant to be taken literally.

[Norm]

You mention some of the issues with hole-carding.

I mention scouting time in general for AP techniques elsewhere. It is a 700 page book, very near the limit the publisher allows. I am not going to repeat the same things in every chapter. Scouting time for shuffle tracking or Roulette is even worse.

This creates the impression that hc plays are way better than they actually are relative to everything else.

Actually, folks I know who have switched to this would say it is. Obviously it is not equal to the theoretic max. Always playing correctly for insurance, or hitting 19 against a 20 will get you tossed. I provide the various cover costs and my software makes it trivial to apply them.

You seem to have great difficulty with nuance. Not every comment is meant to be taken literally.

You seem to have had, for decades, a problem with civility. And this is now the fifth snide remark you have made that is absurdly off-base. I'd rather you solve that or find somewhere else to strike out at other posters.

[Archvaldor]

I mention scouting time in general for AP techniques elsewhere. It is a 700 page book, very near the limit the publisher allows. I am not going to repeat the same things in every chapter. Scouting time for shuffle tracking or Roulette is even worse.
.

You have to mention the scouting time for each individual play in order that people can work out the rate of return.

If you have a 10% edge but you need to spent 10 hours scouting for every hour of actual play, then your effective edge is the same as someone who plays with a 1% edge with no scouting. That is very important.

You can explain frequency of hole-carding opportunities in a paragraph. If you don't do that the implication is that scouting for loaders is equivalent to scouting for a decent counting opportunity which is not the case.

Actually, folks I know who have switched to this would say it is.

I know they would. That is the problem. Tbey often look at the raw edge in isolation as you described and ignore all the downtime and other issues. When you ask them about this they seem to have enormous difficulty acknowledging or perhaps understanding the problem.

I am guessing the reason for this is because you and other noted hole-card authors tend to skirt past the practicalities of actually finding a loader and the other issues I mentioned.

Realistically for the vast majority of people in the world hole-carding is not going to be a viable play by itself. You need a large number of casinos that are geographically close in order to find enough opportunities. Or you have to spend a vast amount of time travelling with costly expenses. You also have to be completely oblivious to or legally incapable of accessing much better plays online or elsewhere.

You seem to have had, for decades, a problem with civility. And this is now the fifth snide remark you have made that is absurdly off-base.

The point was that the comment you took offense to wasn't intended to be offensive or a literal statement. There is nothing snide about clarifying your meaning.