21 Million Bitcoin

[Norm]

My boss at Citibank had a pedestal in his office with a huge, ancient ledger from the early days of Citibank. Citi goes back a ways. It led the funding of the Union side in the US Civil War after the First Battle of Bull Run. It was four years later that Congress defined the uniform national currency. Paper ledgers, IBM 5081 punch cards, paper tape, and cave drawings contain data but are not database systems any more than a disk drive is a database system. They are merely media. OTOH Microsoft Access is a highly efficient, flexible SQL relational database. Indeed, you could set up Access to handle blockchains. Blockchain functionality is a subset of SQL.

[BJC]

Norm,

Consider the security of the block chain in BTC. It can't be edited or manipulated. Each account/address is encrypted and it runs with no supervision.

City banks ledger and every SQL system can be altered.

[Norm]

Bitcoin has repeatedly been hacked. I don't know what you mean by every SQL system can be altered. SQL can operate a Bitcoin database. Obviously SQL databases can be encrypted and have their own security devices. Encryption and other security mechanisms existed before Bitcoin. Even the passwords on this site are encrypted in a SQL database. I'm the admin and I can't see them. Blockchain security is a myth. Google "cryptocurrency security vulnerabilities". Incidentally, a military-grade encryption algorithm has reportedly been hacked by Chinese researchers using a D-Wave quantum computer. Security itself is a myth.

[Archvaldor]

Bitcoin has repeatedly been hacked. I don't know what you mean by every SQL system can be altered. SQL can operate a Bitcoin database. Obviously SQL databases can be encrypted and have their own security devices. Encryption and other security mechanisms existed before Bitcoin. Even the passwords on this site are encrypted in a SQL database. I'm the admin and I can't see them. Blockchain security is a myth. Google "cryptocurrency security vulnerabilities". Incidentally, a military-grade encryption algorithm has reportedly been hacked by Chinese researchers using a D-Wave quantum computer. Security itself is a myth.

Bitcoin itself, as a protocol and network, has never been successfully hacked. The core Bitcoin blockchain has remained secure since its inception in 2009.

[Norm]

Service providers, wallets, and applications are all vulnerable and have been hacked. So they can shout all they want that a part of the mechanism has yet to be hacked when parts that are required to operate have.

There is also the possibility of a 51% attack, which would be a disaster.

[Archvaldor]

Service providers, wallets, and applications are all vulnerable and have been hacked. So they can shout all they want that a part of the mechanism has yet to be hacked when parts that are required to operate have.

There is also the possibility of a 51% attack, which would be a disaster.

Your responsibility for your password is your own.

Your bank is responsible for the security of its central network. Banks have often had their central networks hacked. Bitcoin has not. No equivalence exists.

[Norm]

All of the bank hacks I am aware of were thefts of personal info: credit card applications and the like. J.P. Morgan's retirement system was hacked stealing member personal data. Seriously stupid of the banks as it is trivial to protect such info. Of course phishing attacks and trojans can steal passwords related to any service and this is how hackers steal actual funds. But those are attacks against users, not a central database. Any institution that has had passwords stolen has an idiot for an IT head as passwords should use one-way encryption. The reason I can't see passwords for this site is that there is no password decryption code.

The security vulnerabilities of crypto include:

• Routing attacks
• Finney attacks
• Sybil attacks
• 51% attacks
• Phishing attacks
• Man-in-the-middle attacks
• Endpoint vulnerabilities
• Compromised Bitcoin ATM machines
• Smart contract vulnerabilities

Financial losses involving cryptocurrency fraud last year totaled over $5.6 billion.

[Archvaldor]

All of the bank hacks I am aware of were thefts of personal info: credit card applications and the like. J.P. Morgan's retirement system was hacked stealing member personal data. Seriously stupid of the banks as it is trivial to protect such info. Of course phishing attacks and trojans can steal passwords related to any service and this is how hackers steal actual funds. But those are attacks against users, not a central database. Any institution that has had passwords stolen has an idiot for an IT head as passwords should use one-way encryption. The reason I can't see passwords for this site is that there is no password decryption code.

The security vulnerabilities of crypto include:

• Routing attacks
• Finney attacks
• Sybil attacks
• 51% attacks
• Phishing attacks
• Man-in-the-middle attacks
• Endpoint vulnerabilities
• Compromised Bitcoin ATM machines
• Smart contract vulnerabilities

Financial losses involving cryptocurrency fraud last year totaled over $5.6 billion.

5.6 billion is about 0.0012% of global financial fraud.

Not a great deal considering bitcoin's increasing market share which is about 0.3% of global wealth. Less than half of what JP Morgan alone paid in fines for mortgage securities selling practices.

Recent bank hacks I'm aware of in the UK and US (there will be others obviously):

JPMorgan Chase (2014): A massive data breach affected 76 million households and 7 million small businesses.
Bangladesh Bank Heist (2016): Hackers stole $81 million from the Bangladesh central bank's account at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.
HSBC (2018): The bank suffered a data breach that exposed the accounts of US customers.
Capital One (2019): A hacker accessed the personal information of approximately 100 million customers in the US and Canada.
Tesco Bank (2016): Criminals stole £2.5 million from 9,000 customer accounts in the UK.
Equifax (2017): While not a bank, this major credit bureau suffered a breach that exposed sensitive information of 147 million people.
Bank of America (2021): A data breach exposed customer data through a third-party provider.

The focus of banking fraud is on data breaches rather than straight asset thief which is a reasonable objection.

[Norm]

No idea what fines paid by J.P. Morgan for selling practices has to do with the subject as this was totally unrelated to security or banking. Looks like the only one of those breaches related to customer funds was Tesco, which is actually an arm of a supermarket chain. The others do not appear to be related to databases dealing with customer funds. Yes, institutions of all types tend to be sloppy with personal data. Shame on them as this is easy to protect. But again, not the subject of this thread.

[Archvaldor]

No idea what fines paid by J.P. Morgan for selling practices has to do with the subject as this was totally unrelated to security or banking.

Uh? It was a bank that scammed people people so hard the government actually did something about it. I'd say that was closely related to banking and security.

The others do not appear to be related to databases dealing with customer funds.

If hackers steal my personal banking details then they can do a bunch of stuff with that, including various schemes to appropriate my customer funds (and a lot worse).

I get strong vibes from you and Don here that you are simply loyal to the banking organizations you belonged to, in the same way crypto bros tend to be to bitcoin etc.

Bitcoin has a lot of issues, but as long as it provides financial services to everyone in the world when there is really nothing else that does that-it is going to grow until it hits practical infrastructure limits you mention. While not unlimited that's going to be many trillions of dollars. You have been criticizing bitcoin since 2010 and it has become probably the most profitable investment ever in that time-at some point you are going to have to admit you were in error. This obviously isn't a tulip-style bubble-that lasted 3 years.

[drunk]

.

in January of 2024 the SEC approved the launch of several Bitcoin ETFs (exchange traded funds) - I think this has to be seen as a positive sign for BTC -

but Btc has a 52 week range of $28,177 to $73,750 - I think that is too much volatility for the average person to deal with as a major financial tool - see 2nd link

these new ETFs are eligible for use in many retirement accounts such as IRAs, and 401K plans

here are some of the companies offering Spot Bitcoin ETFs:

Fidelity, Robinhood, Charles Scwab, E*Trade



https://www.investopedia.com/where-t...n-etfs-8557203


https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD/

[Norm]

Uh? It was a bank that scammed people people so hard the government actually did something about it. I'd say that was closely related to banking and security.

No, it was a mortgage division screwing investors buying packaged mortgages (often subprime) as very large investments, not people getting mortgages or consumer or business banking customers. This is not a part of J.P. Morgan's banking divisions. Nothing to do with consumer banking or security or databases or anything related to Bitcoins. Government fines along these lines are not that uncommon.

If hackers steal my personal banking details then they can do a bunch of stuff with that, including various schemes to appropriate my customer funds (and a lot worse).

They did not steal banking details from the banking databases. They stole personal info from applications and the like, as they have done from so many, many companies in the last few years. Even Microsoft who you would think would know better. This has nothing to do with the banking databases.

I get strong vibes from you and Don here that you are simply loyal to the banking organizations you belonged to, in the same way crypto bros tend to be to bitcoin etc.

I never liked Jamie Dimon and think there are a ton of crooks in both the banking and crypto businesses. Claiming that our beliefs are related to "loyalty" is a seriously poor argument. At Wikipedia it is called an assumption of bad faith and is sanctionable.

You have been criticizing bitcoin since 2010 and it has become probably the most profitable investment ever in that time-at some point you are going to have to admit you were in error

Way off track. I again state that I have no problem with people gambling on crypto. My problem is with using it as a currency with common use.


Incidentally, the FBI arrested a man today for hacking an SEC Twitter account to pump the price of Bitcoins with fake tweets for profit harming other Bitcoin users who purchased on the fake news before the inevitable drop when the fake news was debunked.

[DSchles]

And, of course, I have no "loyalty" to J.P. Morgan, as I worked for rival Morgan Stanley.

Don