Negative ev

[Cacarulo]

Cacarulo, you figured it out. It's the difference between face down and face up. There's actually a huge difference in single deck, late position, with full indexes. This is face down

Attachment 5240

This is the same sim, face up

Attachment 5241

SD, H17, DAS, 6 to 5, Hi Lo, Full Indexes, 4 players, counter sitting in seat 4, 18 cards cut off

This actually might have added a chapter to my book. I had no idea how important face down vs. face up could be.

Yes, obviously if the game is played with cards dealt face down, the advantage of the player in third base will be much smaller. But that’s not the issue I have.
That said, the game is very playable if the cards are dealt face up, and the SCOREs are by no means insignificant, even though my SCOREs don’t reach 90.
It’s true that with a complete set of indices, the change is dramatic. That’s why I wanted to know what the policy is in case of running out of cards.

Sincerely,
Cac

[moo321]

Yes, obviously if the game is played with cards dealt face down, the advantage of the player in third base will be much smaller. But that’s not the issue I have.
That said, the game is very playable if the cards are dealt face up, and the SCOREs are by no means insignificant, even though my SCOREs don’t reach 90.
It’s true that with a complete set of indices, the change is dramatic. That’s why I wanted to know what the policy is in case of running out of cards.

Sincerely,
Cac

As far as the software goes, I don't know. We'd have to ask Norm.


As far as casinos, I've only seen it happen a couple times, and they always shuffled the discards and played the hand out.

[Norm]

Last time I played a pitch game with cards face up was at the long gone Stardust. Of course you can set it as you wish with CVData. On running out of cards (very rare these days), CVData/CVCX shuffles the cards, completes the current round only, and then reshuffles.

[G Man]

On running out of cards (very rare these days), CVData/CVCX shuffles the cards, completes the current round only, and then reshuffles.

This is usually the procedure casinos used to implement.

[Norm]

I don't know why they did that. Very time consuming and the reshuffle doesn't materially affect results.

[Cacarulo]

I don't know why they did that. Very time consuming and the reshuffle doesn't materially affect results.

Totally agree with you. It’s a huge waste of time. And time is money. The most correct approach, in my view, would be to discard the round where they run out of cards and reshuffle.
I know many will argue that if a player got a blackjack, they won’t like this policy at all, but there’s also the case where a player has a terrible hand and a maximum bet out.
I’ve read somewhere that some casinos (I don’t know which ones) have implemented this policy. The current situation of a double shuffle is pointless.

Sincerely,
Cac

[aceside]

Yes, obviously if the game is played with cards dealt face down, the advantage of the player in third base will be much smaller.
Cac

I’m very curious about this point. With cards dealt face down, is there an advantage at 3rd base? Is there a disadvantage at 3rd?

[Norm]

SBA discards the round which negatively affects results. I had heard of a casino doing this long ago. There were large complaints. Would lead to some interesting strategies. For example, if no cards left and you think you have a losing hand, hit. That would nullify the round.

[Cacarulo]

SBA discards the round which negatively affects results. I had heard of a casino doing this long ago. There were large complaints. Would lead to some interesting strategies. For example, if no cards left and you think you have a losing hand, hit. That would nullify the round.

My simulator works just like SBA (keep in mind that I developed it over 25 years ago), and my results are indeed negatively impacted, which I find difficult to understand.
What you mentioned is true; one could potentially exploit that by hitting more cards to nullify the round.

Sincerely,
Cac

[Cacarulo]

I’m very curious about this point. With cards dealt face down, is there an advantage at 3rd base? Is there a disadvantage at 3rd?

If the cards are dealt face down, the information you'll have at third base is much less than if the cards were dealt face up. You'll still have a slight advantage, but it won't be the same.

Sincerely,
Cac

[aceside]

If the cards are dealt face down, the information you'll have at third base is much less than if the cards were dealt face up. You'll still have a slight advantage, but it won't be the same.

Sincerely,
Cac

What I meant to ask is a different question. If all the cards are dealt face down, including the hole cards and hit cards, then the information you will have at 3rd base is exactly the same as that at 1st. That means, there is no advantage at 3rd base over 1st.

However, there is still a little difference between 3rd and 1st.

The count when you place your bet is off from the real count number when you receive your cards.

Does this position-off give a disadvantage to 3rd base over 1st?

[DSchles]

The count when you place your bet is off from the real count number when you receive your cards.

This is completely wrong and untrue. What else is new? On average, the TC at third base will be the same as at any other position. But, you know this. You're just trying to foment trouble.

Don

[DSchles]

My simulator works just like SBA (keep in mind that I developed it over 25 years ago), and my results are indeed negatively impacted, which I find difficult to understand.

You're playing the game at an advantage. The more rounds, the greater the edge. Why wouldn't the results be negatively impacted if you take away a round? Conversely, if you were playing BS on every round and flat betting, wouldn't you prefer not to have received that round?

Don