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Thread: I have inspired rage and been unclear!

  1. #1


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    I have inspired rage and been unclear!

    Some of you here were quite angry with my recent post, "There is no proper way to play blackjack." That leads me to believe that I probably was not clear about what I was trying to say. I don’t think what I said was very important (I just like rambling about blackjack), but I really don’t want to spread pseudo-science, so I want to clarify what I meant…
    In part of my post I said something like, “if you hit a 12 and get a 9, and win the hand, then you have made the correct decision, regardless of basic strategy.” This could be interpreted, though, as me saying that such an outcome means you should abandon basic strategy, or alternatively that a person who hits a 12 and gets a 9 is a winning player. I think that both those interpretations are responding to a different statement than I was trying to make. I was purposely talking about results on a micro-level. Whether someone is an advantage player can only be determined through the analysis of large numbers. And the analysis and interpretation of large numbers can lead us to accept undesirable outcomes sometimes for the sake of being right most of the time. For example, if someone deviates from basic without knowing why and goes on to win the hand then, yes, I still argue they made the correct play, but unfortunately they should not have made the correct play.
    We generally talk only of results in terms of large numbers in gambling (reasonably so), so I wanted to be a little kooky for a second and refer back to the atomic unit of large numbers, which are individual outcomes. The reason for this is that sometimes imo we think at such a large scale in gambling that we forget that we actually do want to win our current hand – we do want to make the correct play. What I am trying to note is that in the situation where someone stands on a 12 and then loses because they followed basic strategy, even though a 9 was coming, basic strategy has failed to accomplish our fundamental goal of winning/losing the least possible hands.
    We should not as AP’s be trying to play basic strategy as much as possible. We should instead be trying to win as much as possible. The two are the same practically given a very basic understanding of blackjack, but the two are also fundamentally different. Basic strategy is a means, winning is a value. We should adjust the means we use to optimize for our values. This is why we count cards. Counting cards gives us extra information that improves upon basic strategy (this is what deviations are). But we should only use deviations when we know what the count is.
    The reason I say all this is because I think it serves us to have a creative approach to games, rather than simply seeing games as the systems we use to play them. Games offer potentially infinite information, systems use limited information. We should seek to look at games for all the information they might offer. I think this is how new and better ways of playing are contrived. Card counting is a system that leads to us losing about half the hands we play and could have us in the negative financially for hundreds of hours. And there’s really nothing wrong with that. There are so many reasons why someone would do nothing at all besides count cards. And I don’t like when people say that counting cards is stupid, and that only more advanced AP is smart. I’m just saying that counting cards may feel limiting to you, and that is because all gambling systems are in fact limited and optimization is always subjective and determined by the information and values you have.
    So, if you go on to try to find other ways to play they should be rooted in math and then further your personal preferences, like, say, how much EV you want to generate, how much risk you want to take on, how much you want to travel, how much heat you wish to accept, or how short you want your N0 to be, etc.

  2. #2


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    In your example, you DON'T KNOW that 9 is coming, so it ISN'T the correct play.

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by autonymity View Post
    So, if you go on to try to find other ways to play they should be rooted in math and then further your personal preferences, like, say, how much EV you want to generate, how much risk you want to take on, how much you want to travel, how much heat you wish to accept, or how short you want your N0 to be, etc.
    Most people have a good time with blackjack (it can be played just for fun) but most of them don’t win.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by ShipTheCookies View Post
    In your example, you DON'T KNOW that 9 is coming, so it ISN'T the correct play.
    I seem to still not be landing my point. I think we need to agree on what "correctness" is before there is any chance we can go forward in this conversation. Merriam-Webster has 4 definitions of the words "correct": 1) conforming to an approved or conventional standard i.e. correct behavior 2) conforming to or agreeing with fact, logic, or known truth i.e. a correct response 3) conforming to a set figure i.e. enclosed the correct return postage 4) conforming to the strict requirements of a specific ideology or set of beliefs or values i.e. environmentally correct or spiritually correct. You are using the 2nd definition (known truth). I am using the 3rd definition (a set figure). Your known truth is basic strategy. My figure is whether the hand won. In your system the play was incorrect because it did not conform to known truth. To me, it is correct because it conformed to my pre-determined value of winning the hand. That is not to say though that I don't value your system, but you must admit that your system was created using my system i.e. the known truth of basic strategy was contrived by a large sample size where individual events did or did not conform to the preset figure of winning. Your definition of correctness is in the "response" i.e. the decision process, whereas my definition of correctness is determined retroactively. Now, your definition has the utility of generated EV. My definition has the utility (to me at least) of creating a system to generate EV. Nevertheless, I think that anyone who is playing blackjack should be using your system of correctness. On the other hand I think anyone analyzing blackjack should use my system. Different perspectives for different purposes.

  5. #5
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    I do not understand your point and don't really care to. Basic strategy is rarely used by APs. It is used in cases like rebates or BJ 2:1 promotions. APs use many other kinds of strategies. But in all those cases, the correct play is the play depending on your strategy and the current information (which may include how the pit boss is staring at you). How any particular hand turned out is not relevant to "correctness". In card counting, the correct play often has a less desired result. But, the correct play is the correct play irrespective of the result.

    Incidentally, progression system developers constantly update their systems to "correct" them because they don't work, building more and more useless exceptions. They stop when they run out of money and the wife wants to know where the toaster disappeared to. But pawn shops have to make money too.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Hi Auto,

    No one here is raged because of your post; we are largely frustrated. I understand your point, but it is not relevant either to playing blackjack or thinking about blackjack. You seem not to want to admit you have conflated short-term outcomes with the quality of decision-making, misunderstood the objectivity of statistical analysis to the problem of playing winning blackjack, and mistaken the point of advantage play. The point of AP is not to win hands; the point is to make good decisions. As Norm already pointed out, putting the cart before the horse, focusing on individual hands rather than on the aggregate, and re-contextualizing the definition of a "good decision" is what civilians do. That sort of pseudoscience leads to progression systems and other fallacious modes of thinking. We're more than happy to teach you how not to reinvent the wheel if you're willing to learn, but first you need to exercise some intellectual humility. Remember that many of us have spent years of hard work ironing out the details, developing the data, and putting our hard-earned money in play to test the predictions. If you want to convince us skeptical types that you're not a crank or a troll, you need more than out-of-the-box thinking and semantic arguments: you need to show that your way of thinking gets the money.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by ShipTheCookies View Post
    In your example, you DON'T KNOW that 9 is coming, so it ISN'T the correct play.
    I think what he is trying to do is argue that it is correct if your goal is to win hands retrospectively. Or something.

  8. #8


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    I (think?) I get that autonymity is saying that, objectively, the "correct" decision is always the one that leads to the desired outcome but I don't get how that helps.

    Card counting predicts changing deck composition in a generalised sense: favourable vs unfavourable. So, obviously, it can only give an indication that a certain decision is more likely to be correct.

    The only ways to do better than that are:

    prior knowledge of exact deck composition so all decisions are made knowing what the next card will be (I guess shuffle tracking, sequencing or an answered prayer that you don't get caught using some kind of computer gets closest?) or...

    time travel

    No?

  9. #9


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    No, it's all more or less nonsense. Suppose we know that a coin is biased to come up heads 51% of the time. Then, if we're betting on coin flips, betting tails (and getting it right) is NOT the correct action; rather, it's a stupid decision and we just happened to get rewarded DESPITE--not because of--our stupidity.

    One of the fundamental problems of people's understanding of the "long run" is that there is one decision to be made if we're looking to maximize returns "in the long run," but that, in the short run, or on just one given flip, it doesn't much matter which way we guess. That is, of course, completely aberrational thinking. We can't get to be right in the long run by making a series of stupid, or incorrect, guesses on any given flip. Such thinking defies all logic.

    Don
    Last edited by DSchles; 08-20-2024 at 09:52 AM.

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    I think the OP must have some sports coaching or competing background based on the way he focus on "winning" , but I could be wrong.

    Im saying this cause I been competing almost my whole life in a sport, and I heard a thousand times this "philosophy" focused solely on the outcome

    Anyway, in any case is more a philosophy but defies the logic (specially in this topic) IMO
    Last edited by Seraph; 08-20-2024 at 09:48 AM.

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by pmc View Post
    I (think?) I get that autonymity is saying that, objectively, the "correct" decision is always the one that leads to the desired outcome but I don't get how that helps.

    Card counting predicts changing deck composition in a generalised sense: favourable vs unfavourable. So, obviously, it can only give an indication that a certain decision is more likely to be correct.

    The only ways to do better than that are:

    prior knowledge of exact deck composition so all decisions are made knowing what the next card will be (I guess shuffle tracking, sequencing or an answered prayer that you don't get caught using some kind of computer gets closest?) or...

    time travel

    No?
    I very recently had a monster TC on 6 deck with 7 or 8 small cards coming out. If you can predict these slugs, you can prevent some misery.

  12. #12


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    Don said
    That is, of course, completely aberrational thinking. We’re can't get to be right in the long run by making a series of stupid, or incorrect, guesses on any given flip. Such thinking defies all logic.
    Very much agree to context. Now, as to grammar

  13. #13


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    Ha! Thanks. And this one, I reread. Have I mentioned recently that my typing sucks?!

    Don

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