BJ Tables in Argentina (question for House Edge expert)

[Seraph]

Its been like 6 years since I dont go to a casino, and decided to check the BJ tables in the Buenos Aires state ( in Buenos Aires city casinos are actually banned)
All of Buenos Aires state casinos are regulated by the state itself and all got the same rules

Anyway the rules are bad

8 Decks
S17
D10/11
NDAS
1 split only
NHC (actually is a hole card but no peek)

PEN 6.5-7/8.
BJ 3:2
No surrender

House edge is 0.90 aprox

but there are some pretty rare rules, and I cant find how much affect the edge

Tied BJ paid 50% ( no even money offered) and you can also insurance, so in case both got BJ you win the insurance and the 50% paid.

Also every unnatural BJ ( after splitting either 10s or As) are paid 3:2

Dealers and pit bosses doesnt care about card counters , but the set up of the table makes imposible to have a good look at the discard tray ( you need to play in the first base)

Anyway I doubt that any of you will travel here, but Im giving you a scout report


Theres also a Boat Casino in Buenos Aires city, with good rules but every single table has a CSM

Thanks in advance if you have any idea of the overall House Edge

[Cacarulo]

Hi, former part time Card Counter from Argentina.
Its been like 6 years since I dont go to a casino, and decided to check the BJ tables in the Buenos Aires state ( in Buenos Aires city casinos are actually banned)

Anyway the rules are bad

8 Decks
S17
D10/11
NDAS
1 split only
NHC (actually is a hole card but no peek)
Player loses all bets
PEN 6.5-7/8.
BJ 3:2
No surrender

House edge is 0.90 aprox

but there are some pretty rare rules, and I cant find how much affect the edge

Tied BJ paid 50% ( no even money offered) and you can also insurance, so in case both got BJ you win the insurance and the 50% paid.

Also every unnatural BJ ( after splitting either 10s or As) are paid 3:2

Dealers and pit bosses doesnt care about card counters , but the set up of the table makes imposible to have a good look at the discard tray ( you need to play in the first spot)

Anyway I doubt that any of you will travel here, but Im giving you a scout report


Theres also a Boat Casino in Buenos Aires city, with good rules but every single table has a CSM

Thanks in advance if you have any idea of the overall House Edge

Hi Seraph,

The game you describe is really horrible without the additional rules you mention.
Although it may not seem like it, those rules really make a difference. Let's see:

1) 8D, S17, D10, NDAS, SPA1, SPL1, NS, ENHC, BJ 3:2
With optimal play, the house edge is 0.8850%.
Using a TD-BS (total dependent basic strategy), the house edge is 0.8932%.

2) 8D, S17, D10, NDAS, SPA1, SPL1, NS, ENHC, BJ 3:2 but with the additional rules.
With optimal play, the house edge is 0.5650%.
Using a TD-BS (total dependent basic strategy), the house edge is 0.5731%.

The only change in BS between 1) and 2) is that AAvA must be split.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Cac

[Seraph]

Hi Seraph,

The game you describe is really horrible without the additional rules you mention.
Although it may not seem like it, those rules really make a difference. Let's see:

1) 8D, S17, D10, NDAS, SPA1, SPL1, NS, ENHC, BJ 3:2
With optimal play, the house edge is 0.8850%.
Using a TD-BS (total dependent basic strategy), the house edge is 0.8932%.

2) 8D, S17, D10, NDAS, SPA1, SPL1, NS, ENHC, BJ 3:2 but with the additional rules.
With optimal play, the house edge is 0.5650%.
Using a TD-BS (total dependent basic strategy), the house edge is 0.5731%.

The only change in BS between 1) and 2) is that AAvA must be split.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Cac

Thanks for the answer Cacacarulo !!!

Wow its really surprising that is actually a playable game with the additional rules.

I wasnt sure of the edge and I didnt wanted to play with that rules (just a little of back counting) and I was rusty with some NDAS decisions ( 2,2 3,3 and 4,4) for ENHC.

Anyway I have a business trip to a different state in Argentina next month , I will post the table rules in case ayone care

Thanks


BTW is there a way to simulate those additional rules in CVCX? , I cant find it anywhere

[Cacarulo]

Thanks for the answer Cacacarulo !!!

Wow its really surprising that is actually a playable game with the additional rules.

I wasnt sure of the edge and I didnt wanted to play with that rules (just a little of back counting) and I was rusty with some NDAS decisions ( 2,2 3,3 and 4,4) for ENHC.

The most important things to keep in mind in an ENHC game are the following:

1) Do not double down against a Ten or an Ace from the dealer.
2) Do not split against a Ten or an Ace from the dealer except for AAvT. For the specific case of this casino, it is possible to split AAvA.

Anyway I have a business trip to a different state in Argentina next month , I will post the table rules in case ayone care

Why not?

BTW is there a way to simulate those additional rules in CVCX? , I cant find it anywhere

Regarding whether it is possible to simulate these rules in CVData/CVCX, it would be best to ask Norman.

Sincerely,
Cac

[Seraph]

The most important things to keep in mind in an ENHC game are the following:

1) Do not double down against a Ten or an Ace from the dealer.
2) Do not split against a Ten or an Ace from the dealer except for AAvT. For the specific case of this casino, it is possible to split AAvA.



Why not?



Regarding whether it is possible to simulate these rules in CVData/CVCX, it would be best to ask Norman.

Sincerely,
Cac

Thanks again Cac

Do you think I will need a specific deviation for splitting Ten for this particular rules or just the usuals in HI-Lo ?

BTW Im still surprised by how the house edge changes so much

[Cacarulo]

Thanks again Cac

Do you think I will need a specific deviation for splitting Ten for this particular rules or just the usuals in HI-Lo ?

BTW Im still surprised by how the house edge changes so much

Yes, that is correct. Without the additional rules, the normal indices would be +5, +5, and +7 for TT vs 6/5/4.
In this case, the values would be +1, +2, and +3 respectively.

Sincerely,
Cac

[21forme]

For the OP: About 5 years ago, I was in Patagonia. I happened to walk by a casino in El Calafate on the main street, so I went in. Games were terrible and limits were low. I know it's a long way from BA (I was there, too, but no casino play, just sightseeing), but it would be a waste of time if you are in that area.

[Seraph]

Yes, that is correct.
In this case, the values would be +1, +2, and +3 respectively.

Sincerely,
Cac

Thank you again CaC

For the OP: About 5 years ago, I was in Patagonia. I happened to walk by a casino in El Calafate on the main street, so I went in. Games were terrible and limits were low. I know it's a long way from BA (I was there, too, but no casino play, just sightseeing), but it would be a waste of time if you are in that area.

Thanks for the info, yes Patagonia is a long way from where I live.
Next month I have a work trip to "Entre Rios" 220 miles from here, I will check the games there.
Argentina is in a bad spot economically and yes, the table limits are really low dollar wise

[Seraph]

Ok, I went to Entre Rios state to check the tables was a quick trip and I didnt have the time to play
I found out that in Entre Rios all casinos are regulated by the state/province and therefore same rules in all casinos


6 decks
S17
D10/11
NDAS
1 split only
ENHC (actually is a hole card but no peek)
Player loses all bets
PEN 5-5.5/6.
BJ 3:2
No surrender
You have unlimited draw in split aces

Then again some unusual rules

NO insurance on dealer black Jack
But you have kind of a side bet for your own Black Jack
When your first card is an ace you can bet half of the original bet as your "own" insurance
If you win you got pay for the Black Jack AND for the "insurance"

If you draw another ace you can split AND make another side bet/insurance but those count only as side bet NO as blackjack

@Cacarulo any idea how those unusual rules affect the House Edge ?

[Cacarulo]

Ok, I went to Entre Rios state to check the tables was a quick trip and I didnt have the time to play
I found out that in Entre Rios all casinos are regulated by the state/province and therefore same rules in all casinos


6 decks
S17
D10/11
NDAS
1 split only
ENHC (actually is a hole card but no peek)
Player loses all bets
PEN 5-5.5/6.
BJ 3:2
No surrender
You have unlimited draw in split aces

Then again some unusual rules

NO insurance on dealer black Jack
But you have kind of a side bet for your own Black Jack
When your first card is an ace you can bet half of the original bet as your "own" insurance
If you win you got pay for the Black Jack AND for the "insurance"

If you draw another ace you can split AND make another side bet/insurance but those count only as side bet NO as blackjack

@Cacarulo any idea how those unusual rules affect the House Edge ?

What strange rules they have in that country! :-)
As for the house edge, I think the other casino with 8 decks has a better one.
If you didn't have the HSA rule (Hit after Splitting Aces), the house edge would be 0.8599. With HSA, it drops to 0.6878. It's still high, but the other rules seem quite interesting:
1) The penetration of 5-5.5/6 is very good.
2) The self-insurance thing might be interesting. It would need some analysis. Maybe another forum member would like to contribute with some comments.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Cac

[Seraph]

What strange rules they have in that country! :-)
As for the house edge, I think the other casino with 8 decks has a better one.
If you didn't have the HSA rule (Hit after Splitting Aces), the house edge would be 0.8599. With HSA, it drops to 0.6878. It's still high, but the other rules seem quite interesting:
1) The penetration of 5-5.5/6 is very good.
2) The self-insurance thing might be interesting. It would need some analysis. Maybe another forum member would like to contribute with some comments.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Cac

Thanks for the reply

Indeed the rules are pretty weird in general here in Argentina.

The only Casino with "standard" rules ( 6D, ENHC, 3:2 BJ,DAS, 4 splits, s17 ) is in the Boat Casino in Buenos Aires City ( where I used to play many years ago) but now ALL tables are CSM

[21forme]

NO insurance on dealer black Jack
But you have kind of a side bet for your own Black Jack
When your first card is an ace you can bet half of the original bet as your "own" insurance
If you win you got pay for the Black Jack AND for the "insurance"

They had that sidebet in Golden Nuggest in Vegas a number of years ago. Play it just like you would play dealer INS.

[Cacarulo]

They had that sidebet in Golden Nuggest in Vegas a number of years ago. Play it just like you would play dealer INS.

That's right, you play as if the Ace is with the dealer. The only additional gain would occur in the case of splitting Aces, in which case you would be making two self-insurance bets.
We would have to see how much that adds in terms of SCORE. I don't think it would be too much.

Sincerely,
Cac