CVData - Custom Rules Double Up Blackjack

[LegendaryJ]

I am trying to run some new simulations on the Double Up Blackjack game at my local casino. I was trying to use CVData, but I was not sure if this was possible given my issues below. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

However, I am a rookie when it comes to inserting odd rules or different types of bet at issue in this game.

My main issue is that if at any point in time the dealer gets 16, then the hand is a push (unless player 21). Once I understand how to insert the custom rule though for dealer 16 push, then it should be easy to add in new rule that player 21 wins on dealer 16 push I presume.

The second issue is inserting the double up bet itself. You are able to double your original bet on any first two cards (except BJ) or after split. If you win the hand, the bet pays. If the dealer gets 16 the bet pushes. If you tie or lose the hand, then the double up bet loses. The timing of the bet is also different than most side bets. You have the choice of making your bet when it is your turn, meaning after you see your two cards, the dealer up-card, and the dealer has checked for BJ.

Thank you!

[Cacarulo]

I am trying to run some new simulations on the Double Up Blackjack game at my local casino. I was trying to use CVData, but I was not sure if this was possible given my issues below. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

However, I am a rookie when it comes to inserting odd rules or different types of bet at issue in this game.

My main issue is that if at any point in time the dealer gets 16, then the hand is a push (unless player 21). Once I understand how to insert the custom rule though for dealer 16 push, then it should be easy to add in new rule that player 21 wins on dealer 16 push I presume.

The second issue is inserting the double up bet itself. You are able to double your original bet on any first two cards (except BJ) or after split. If you win the hand, the bet pays. If the dealer gets 16 the bet pushes. If you tie or lose the hand, then the double up bet loses. The timing of the bet is also different than most side bets. You have the choice of making your bet when it is your turn, meaning after you see your two cards, the dealer up-card, and the dealer has checked for BJ.

Thank you!

Hi,

Perhaps you can help me with the description and/or confirmation of some rules of this game since apparently not many people in this forum play it.
Here are some doubts:

1) Is the casino you're referring to in Europe or America?
2) Does the dealer deal 2 cards (one face down and one face up) or just one card face up?
3) Are the rules 6D, DOA, DAS, SPA1, SPL3 (or how many splits are allowed for a non-Ace pair?), BJ pays 3:2, NS, Insurance?
4) In addition to the Push-16 rule, is it S17 or H17?
5) Penetration?
6) Does BJ pay 3 to 2 even if the dealer has 16?
7) Table maximums and minimums?
8) Bonus-16 maximums and minimums?
9) How much does the bonus pay when the dealer has a 16 in two cards? 3 to 1 or 4 to 1?

I hope these aren't too many questions :-)

Thank you very much in advance.

Sincerely,
Cac

[LegendaryJ]

Thank you for your help, and not a problem at all. Ask as many questions as needed. I have answered your questions below in RED.

1) Is the casino you're referring to in Europe or America? America
2) Does the dealer deal 2 cards (one face down and one face up) or just one card face up? Two cards (one face down and one face up)
3) Are the rules 6D, DOA, DAS, SPA1, SPL3 (or how many splits are allowed for a non-Ace pair?), BJ pays 3:2, NS, Insurance? All those rules are correct, except I am unsure on how many splits for non-Ace pair. I believe it if unlimited, but I have not split more than twice.
4) In addition to the Push-16 rule, is it S17 or H17? H17
5) Penetration? Penetration is by dealer, but between 4.5/6 to 5/6.
6) Does BJ pay 3 to 2 even if the dealer has 16? Yes. BJ pays, and dealer does not check for 16 until all players are resolved.
7) Table maximums and minimums? $10 / $500
8) Bonus-16 maximums and minimums? $5 minimum / Unsure on maximum, but I think $100
9) How much does the bonus pay when the dealer has a 16 in two cards? 3 to 1 or 4 to 1? 3 to 1, so I do not play it.

[Cacarulo]

Thank you for your help, and not a problem at all. Ask as many questions as needed. I have answered your questions below in RED.

Thank you very much for the responses! I have a few more questions
There are several rules floating around out there.


1. Some say you can only "double up" with 2 cards, but if you have a 7,4 against a 6, obviously you're going to double down, but you're not going to "double up". Now, suppose you receive a 10, totaling 21, can you "double up" now?

2. If you split a pair of aces and receive a 10 on each one, can you "double up"? I understand that you can.

3. There's another rule that says you can hit until you get, for example, 20 or 21 and then "double up". In this case, there are more than 2 cards, similarly to the case of double down. Is this true or false?

4. "Double up" bets always have to be equal to (or less than) the initial bet. That's clear, but what about bonus-16 bets? Can you bet more than the initial bet?
5. Does the dealer peek at the hole card when he has a ten?

Thanks again.

Sincerely,
Cac

[LegendaryJ]

Thank you very much for the responses! I have a few more questions
There are several rules floating around out there.


1. Some say you can only "double up" with 2 cards, but if you have a 7,4 against a 6, obviously you're going to double down, but you're not going to "double up". Now, suppose you receive a 10, totaling 21, can you "double up" now?

2. If you split a pair of aces and receive a 10 on each one, can you "double up"? I understand that you can.

3. There's another rule that says you can hit until you get, for example, 20 or 21 and then "double up". In this case, there are more than 2 cards, similarly to the case of double down. Is this true or false?

4. "Double up" bets always have to be equal to (or less than) the initial bet. That's clear, but what about bonus-16 bets? Can you bet more than the initial bet?
5. Does the dealer peek at the hole card when he has a ten?

Thanks again.

Sincerely,
Cac

1. No. You can only "Double Up" with 2 cards. If you "Double Up" you effectively have to stand. It is basically like doubling down, but instead of taking 1 card, you get 0 cards.

2. Yes, you can place the "Double Up" bet on one or both of the Aces after a split.

3. False at my casino at least. You can only "Double Up" on two cards.

4. Yes, I believe the Bonus-16 bet (which pays when the dealer gets 16) can be higher than the initial bet. However, this bet must be placed before any cards are dealt.

5. Yes

[Cacarulo]

1. No. You can only "Double Up" with 2 cards. If you "Double Up" you effectively have to stand. It is basically like doubling down, but instead of taking 1 card, you get 0 cards.

2. Yes, you can place the "Double Up" bet on one or both of the Aces after a split.

3. False at my casino at least. You can only "Double Up" on two cards.

4. Yes, I believe the Bonus-16 bet (which pays when the dealer gets 16) can be higher than the initial bet. However, this bet must be placed before any cards are dealt.

5. Yes

Excellent! The truth is that you have helped me a lot with all these answers. I see that you are new to this forum and maybe you would be interested in the following thread that was started on March 24th.

https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/sh...e-UP-BlackJack

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Cac

[LegendaryJ]

Excellent! The truth is that you have helped me a lot with all these answers. I see that you are new to this forum and maybe you would be interested in the following thread that was started on March 24th.

https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/sh...e-UP-BlackJack

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Cac

I appreciate all the help and interest. I will go by the casino tonight and confirm the splitting rules and Bonus-16 bet rules I was unsure about above.

I have followed the post. I had read it before subscribing and noticed that there was such a huge disadvantage if you were not taking the Double Up bet. Since the double up bet makes up such a large percentage of the return, and by far the most common Double Up is on 20, then I wondered how successful counting might be and how the count would effect your decision to double up 20 v. T. Unfortunately, I could not figure out how to enter it into CVData, and I am not a programmer for my own simulation.

I also saw the CAC2 count of yours, and I thought about giving that a try to as I am currently only using Hi-Lo on the rare occasion I am going to Vegas. If I had the opportunity to count more effectively at the local casinos, then I would be more inclined to put in the time and effort to learn a more complex system like CAC2.

[Cacarulo]

I appreciate all the help and interest. I will go by the casino tonight and confirm the splitting rules and Bonus-16 bet rules I was unsure about above.

I have followed the post. I had read it before subscribing and noticed that there was such a huge disadvantage if you were not taking the Double Up bet. Since the double up bet makes up such a large percentage of the return, and by far the most common Double Up is on 20, then I wondered how successful counting might be and how the count would effect your decision to double up 20 v. T. Unfortunately, I could not figure out how to enter it into CVData, and I am not a programmer for my own simulation.

That would be very helpful. Regarding the splitting rules, between SPL3 and SPL10 for example, there isn't much difference in EV since those hands are quite improbable.
However, the maximum and minimum bets on the Bonus-16 might indeed be important, as well as whether these bets are independent of the main bets.

According to my simulations and strictly following the rules from the WOO, the House Edge is 0.37% off the top. For a penetration of 4.5/6, it's 0.39% (the difference is due to the cut card effect).
I'm 99% convinced that 0.37% is correct, and I would like another forum member to confirm it.

I also saw the CAC2 count of yours, and I thought about giving that a try to as I am currently only using Hi-Lo on the rare occasion I am going to Vegas. If I had the opportunity to count more effectively at the local casinos, then I would be more inclined to put in the time and effort to learn a more complex system like CAC2.

And on occasions when you're not going to Las Vegas, what prevents you from using Hi-Lo or any other system? Clearly, you can use Hi-Lo or CAC2 with this Double Up game.

Sincerely,
Cac

[LegendaryJ]

That would be very helpful. Regarding the splitting rules, between SPL3 and SPL10 for example, there isn't much difference in EV since those hands are quite improbable.
However, the maximum and minimum bets on the Bonus-16 might indeed be important, as well as whether these bets are independent of the main bets.

According to my simulations and strictly following the rules from the WOO, the House Edge is 0.37% off the top. For a penetration of 4.5/6, it's 0.39% (the difference is due to the cut card effect).
I'm 99% convinced that 0.37% is correct, and I would like another forum member to confirm it.



And on occasions when you're not going to Las Vegas, what prevents you from using Hi-Lo or any other system? Clearly, you can use Hi-Lo or CAC2 with this Double Up game.

Sincerely,
Cac

Bonus-16 Bet was $5 / $500. I could only play with one dealer last night, but they allowed a Bonus-16 Bet larger than the initial bet.

I use Hi-Lo anytime I go to the local casino as well. I just meant if I play more than a few times a year, then I would be willing to develop my skills to use a more advanced system. How would I go about developing betting spreads and indices for Hi-Lo or CAC2 with the Double Up game?

Any feedback or way to calculate edge when employing either Hi-Lo or CAC2? I ordered CAC2 with the bonus information as well off Qfit.

[Cacarulo]

Bonus-16 Bet was $5 / $500. I could only play with one dealer last night, but they allowed a Bonus-16 Bet larger than the initial bet.

Thanks! It helps.

I use Hi-Lo anytime I go to the local casino as well. I just meant if I play more than a few times a year, then I would be willing to develop my skills to use a more advanced system. How would I go about developing betting spreads and indices for Hi-Lo or CAC2 with the Double Up game?

Any feedback or way to calculate edge when employing either Hi-Lo or CAC2? I ordered CAC2 with the bonus information as well off Qfit.

I understand that it's currently not possible with CVData. I'm developing software to tackle this game, but I'm still in the early stages of gathering accurate information (like the one you've provided so far).
I need to figure out how to calculate indices and, most importantly, indices for DU. Not all systems are compatible with this game. The EoRs are different.
Once I make some progress, I'll give you some tips.

Sincerely,
Cac

[rideordie]

Just curious if you've had any success with the software? I'll be playing this game this weekend and would love any recommendations for indices. Also, if you'd like, I can provide you accurate/current game rules and conditions for use in your analysis. Thanks in advance

[Cacarulo]

Just curious if you've had any success with the software? I'll be playing this game this weekend and would love any recommendations for indices. Also, if you'd like, I can provide you accurate/current game rules and conditions for use in your analysis. Thanks in advance

Hi rideodie,

Yes, I’ve been successful in developing software for DU BJ. The systems I’ve developed have performed very well with some advantage players who decided to test them, though they are not publicly available.
I use the term "systems" because many players prefer not to learn a new system for each new game that emerges. That’s why my goal was to adapt common counting systems with completely different indices
and a new basic strategy. Using traditional blackjack indices and strategies for this game would be suicidal.
Additionally, I have other systems specifically designed for DU that are unrelated to standard counting systems.

Before you ask, I haven’t yet decided to sell them as I did with CAC2. So far, they have only been sold individually and at the request of advantage players who contacted me privately.
If there is significant interest, I might reconsider making them available for sale.

It’s always useful to know the current rules and conditions of the game. I’ve noticed that there is no general standard, but sometimes a small change in the rules makes one casino better than another.
Check the rules that I previously asked LegendaryJ about. Also, pay attention to how many splits of aces and other cards are allowed. Thanks. I’ll respond to your PM shortly.

Sincerely,
Cac

[JimmiKixx]

Hi rideodie,

Yes, I’ve been successful in developing software for DU BJ. The systems I’ve developed have performed very well with some advantage players who decided to test them, though they are not publicly available.
I use the term "systems" because many players prefer not to learn a new system for each new game that emerges. That’s why my goal was to adapt common counting systems with completely different indices
and a new basic strategy. Using traditional blackjack indices and strategies for this game would be suicidal.
Additionally, I have other systems specifically designed for DU that are unrelated to standard counting systems.

Before you ask, I haven’t yet decided to sell them as I did with CAC2. So far, they have only been sold individually and at the request of advantage players who contacted me privately.
If there is significant interest, I might reconsider making them available for sale.

It’s always useful to know the current rules and conditions of the game. I’ve noticed that there is no general standard, but sometimes a small change in the rules makes one casino better than another.
Check the rules that I previously asked LegendaryJ about. Also, pay attention to how many splits of aces and other cards are allowed. Thanks. I’ll respond to your PM shortly.

Sincerely,
Cac

Cacarulo, are you able to reach out to me please, im a new member so cannot send you a PM, but I have some information that may be profitable