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Thread: WONG vs DON, Total Ten vs Dealer 10

  1. #1


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    WONG vs DON, Total Ten vs Dealer 10

    I have been looking at the hand 10 v T recently and at the different EORs involved (especially the 7). The DD indice by Wong was + 4 for doubling down with HiLo (also =4 with Halves H17 and S17) but Gronbog and Don’s new book says to DD at +7 and above. I also get +7 with KC’s CDCA.

    What causes such a difference?
    It has to be more than just flooring vs truncating.
    Last edited by Secretariat; 11-22-2023 at 08:38 AM.

  2. #2


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    Quote Originally Posted by Secretariat View Post
    I have been looking at the hand 10 v T recently and at the different EORs involved (especially the 7). The DD indice by Wong was + 4 for doubling down with HiLo (also =4 with Halves H17 and S17) but Gronbog and Don’s new book says to DD at +7 and above. I also get +7 with KC’s CDCA.

    What causes such a difference?
    It has to be more than just flooring vs truncating.
    +4 is strike point
    +7 is risk averse. Use +7

    I never did get around to buying the book - don’t know if it has a Canadian source. Think I saw a reference that risk averse indices were used. Certainly Gronbog or Don can confirm.

  3. #3


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    I was just looking at the table (s) but forgot a paragraph on page 9. Don adresses the situation and indeed, it's risk averse concept to add to SCORE. A shortage of 7s and surplus of aces is favorable and it helps if they are side counted. Still, from +4 to +7 that's quite a margin.
    Last edited by Secretariat; 11-22-2023 at 09:12 AM.

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    Of course a shortage of Aces and 7s are favorable
    Actually, a surplus of aces are preferable. Dealer wins 1x your max bet when he gets blackjack, but you win 2x your max bet when you get it, which also beats dealer 20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Actually, a surplus of aces are preferable. Dealer wins 1x your max bet when he gets blackjack, but you win 2x your max bet when you get it, which also beats dealer 20.
    I corrected the Aces part, two minutes after writing it. Of course Aces are favorable with our ten total.It's the shortage of 7s which is more subtle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Secretariat View Post
    I corrected the Aces part, two minutes after writing it. Of course Aces are favorable with our ten total.It's the shortage of 7s which is more subtle.
    Give me the reasoning - not sure of it

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Give me the reasoning - not sure of it
    If you look at the EORs against T in BJA3 Table D10, the EOR of 7 with 10 against Ten is +1.6360 for doubling down. It's the second most significant card, the Ace being premier with a -1,9307 EOR. The Ten is 3rd at -1,0164.
    Last edited by Secretariat; 11-22-2023 at 12:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    +4 is strike point
    +7 is risk averse. Use +7
    Correct. Don discusses this in the text as pointed out by Secretariat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post

    I never did get around to buying the book - don’t know if it has a Canadian source. Think I saw a reference that risk averse indices were used. Certainly Gronbog or Don can confirm.
    You should be able to order it from Amazon. We used EV maximizing indices except for the one in question here (10 vs T - hole card games) and 11 vs T (ENHC).

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    You should be able to order it from Amazon. We used EV maximizing indices except for the one in question here (10 vs T - hole card games) and 11 vs T (ENHC).
    Amazon has been screwed up for me - password issue - I’ll give it another shot. Would be nice just to go down to Chapters or Indigo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Amazon has been screwed up for me - password issue - I’ll give it another shot. Would be nice just to go down to Chapters or Indigo.
    Hmm, no issues this time - CAD 54.91 + tax. Should have it Friday.

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    Glad to hear it!

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    Glad to hear it!
    My goof - wrong Friday. Guaranteed for next Friday, though something tells me it will be quicker.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Guaranteed for next Friday, though something tells me it will be quicker.
    Cool. Just don't let the negative indices confuse your own style. Wong's first edition of PBJ used Flooring for the TC, while the newer edition on Amazon uses Truncation.

    And of course, Don and Gronbog's book is based on Flooring.
    Last edited by Ole; 11-26-2023 at 07:25 AM.

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