Some questions for the pros about their start

[LicenseToTilt]

To any pros out there, can you please share some information about your start? Any of these questions answered would be some great insight for novices like myself.

How big was your initial bankroll?
How fast did it grow?
What was your spread?
Did you plan on being a professional right from the outset?
How long before you quit your job?
How long did you practice before hitting the casino?
Did you ever ruin your bankroll?
How many hours a week were you playing while still working a day job?
How many hours were you working at your day job at the same time?
Were you able to earn at the rate predicted by CVCX?

Thanks for anything (first time poster)

[BW987]

As an inspiring AP I would also add....how long before you went on the road....if at all? How did you react to your first back off? How long before you got comfortable with back offs?

thanks

[marriedputter]

1. I had a replenishable bankroll because I also had other income to finance it. So you could say I had a "big" bankroll because I could always bail myself out with future income. I think I played as if I had a $50k bankroll if memory serves.
2. In my case, really quickly. I had good variance. The aces could have easily flowed to the dealer instead, but I caught more.
3. Depends on the place. It varied according to tolerance. Where I played, the house didn't seem to care about anything but black chips. So I was able to get away with one hand of $5 to two hands of $90.
4. If you consider professional to be defined as your sole dependency on the income, then no. Almost nobody does. It's possible, but not fun.
5. I retired in 2017 at 42 years old. Stocks, stock options and Real Estate made that possible, not BJ.
6. A few months
7. No, but in my case it wasn't possible since it could be replenished. If I had been playing with a "real" bankroll, I think the answer would still be no. I hit good variance right away.
8. Weekends mainly with the occasional weekday evening. Probably about 15 hours.
9. 40-50
10. I never used it. I just read various books and used the combined info to calculate.

@BW987
1. Never did.
2. My first back off was really pleasant, so it went fine. My other ones were more brusk. I just stayed silent to try and be as unmemorable as possible.
3. I am never comfortable with them, but I try my best to just shrug my shoulders and move on.

[LicenseToTilt]

Very insightful. Thank you for taking the time to explain that. If you were consistently putting in 15 hours a weekend, I'm assuming that you were playing somewhere close to home. How did you avoid getting outed as an AP? There are many casinos near my house but I'm concerned about getting blacklisted from them all quickly once I start playing for real. I know this will happen eventually but I want to postpone it for as long as I can.
Also, those 15 hours you were getting in, where they at the same casino or did you split it up and go to several at a time?

[NorthEastCounter]

I would also be curious how long were your typical sessions? (One 15hr session or fifteen 1 hr sessions?)
thanks!

[Archvaldor]

Very insightful. Thank you for taking the time to explain that. If you were consistently putting in 15 hours a weekend, I'm assuming that you were playing somewhere close to home. How did you avoid getting outed as an AP? There are many casinos near my house but I'm concerned about getting blacklisted from them all quickly once I start playing for real. I know this will happen eventually but I want to postpone it for as long as I can.
Also, those 15 hours you were getting in, where they at the same casino or did you split it up and go to several at a time?

Card counting is a very old and well known strategy. Your bets will be highly correlated with the count. There is no way you can hide that for any length of time from any one competent.

You will either get banned or you will have to learn some form of advantage play that your local joints are not familiar with if you only play in your region.

[marriedputter]

If you were consistently putting in 15 hours a weekend, I'm assuming that you were playing somewhere close to home. How did you avoid getting outed as an AP? There are many casinos near my house but I'm concerned about getting blacklisted from them all quickly once I start playing for real. I know this will happen eventually but I want to postpone it for as long as I can.
Also, those 15 hours you were getting in, where they at the same casino or did you split it up and go to several at a time?

1. Before I ever even started, I went shopping at Good Will to find clothes to play the part. I am naturally very white color and look clean cut pretty much all the time. I figured if I were to be successful, I needed to match the look and actions of the other degenerates. I would often wear clothes that looked like I had just been painting and would always always have a beer in my hand (no complaints on that one).
2. I would play for a few hours at one joint then go to another (or if I won a lot quickly, I would leave). I would keep track of my yearly and lifetime win. If I were up twice as much at one place, I would play a bit more at another place. I figured that once I hit the $10k mark somewhere, that one extra digit might raise red flags in their minds. So I avoided that extra decimal place for as long as possible.
3. I figured out the best times to be at each place for both table availability and dealers/floor people I wanted to see.
4. I would talk constantly to everybody while playing. I would be so chatty that I wanted them to think there was no way I could possibly be counting.
5. I would make dumb plays here and there, and checked BA3 for the cost.
6. I would always stay on 16 and would never hit soft 18.
7. To avoid negative counts, I would white rabbit if there were other tables available. I would never Wong in.
8. I played with a player's card at local joints because they know my face. Even if they didn't know my real name, I figured they still would know who I was and would not let me play anyway once they booted me. I knew these casinos didn't share, so I wasn't worried about my mug spilling out nationally.
9. I would often bet big off the top. If I won, I left the bet out till I lost. If I lost the first hand, I'd go back down.
10. I would frequently do a meaningless progression. For example, if my low bet is $10 on my ramp, I would alter bets randomly between $5, $10, $15. This makes the average bet $10. This is better than betting $5 over and over then suddenly betting $80. I figured if my bets were "all over the place," I would look more like a chaotic gambler than a counter. Anything that looks random is always good. It also could have the benefit of them giving you a higher average bet for comps if you're on a card.

At some point, I knew they knew, but I was able to still get away with it for a long time because I was able to read between the lines in terms of their "daily" tolerance. I was asked by two different dealers at one joint how much I was trying to win every time I came in. I didn't figure it out at first, but I later realized that this was code for how much I intended to take from them per day. It was their way of saying they would tolerate it, but don't get greedy.

Here I am ten years later and I am still allowed to play at about half the places I used to. The place that was the most tolerant of me and of which I had the least fear ended up telling my I couldn't play anymore.

You will be banned from BJ at some point no matter how good you are. Success in BJ nowadays is more determined by how long you can last, not how good you are at counting.

[LicenseToTilt]

1. Before I ever even started, I went shopping at Good Will to find clothes to play the part. I am naturally very white color and look clean cut pretty much all the time. I figured if I were to be successful, I needed to match the look and actions of the other degenerates. I would often wear clothes that looked like I had just been painting and would always always have a beer in my hand (no complaints on that one).
2. I would play for a few hours at one joint then go to another (or if I won a lot quickly, I would leave). I would keep track of my yearly and lifetime win. If I were up twice as much at one place, I would play a bit more at another place. I figured that once I hit the $10k mark somewhere, that one extra digit might raise red flags in their minds. So I avoided that extra decimal place for as long as possible.
3. I figured out the best times to be at each place for both table availability and dealers/floor people I wanted to see.
4. I would talk constantly to everybody while playing. I would be so chatty that I wanted them to think there was no way I could possibly be counting.
5. I would make dumb plays here and there, and checked BA3 for the cost.
6. I would always stay on 16 and would never hit soft 18.
7. To avoid negative counts, I would white rabbit if there were other tables available. I would never Wong in.
8. I played with a player's card at local joints because they know my face. Even if they didn't know my real name, I figured they still would know who I was and would not let me play anyway once they booted me. I knew these casinos didn't share, so I wasn't worried about my mug spilling out nationally.
9. I would often bet big off the top. If I won, I left the bet out till I lost. If I lost the first hand, I'd go back down.
10. I would frequently do a meaningless progression. For example, if my low bet is $10 on my ramp, I would alter bets randomly between $5, $10, $15. This makes the average bet $10. This is better than betting $5 over and over then suddenly betting $80. I figured if my bets were "all over the place," I would look more like a chaotic gambler than a counter. Anything that looks random is always good. It also could have the benefit of them giving you a higher average bet for comps if you're on a card.

At some point, I knew they knew, but I was able to still get away with it for a long time because I was able to read between the lines in terms of their "daily" tolerance. I was asked by two different dealers at one joint how much I was trying to win every time I came in. I didn't figure it out at first, but I later realized that this was code for how much I intended to take from them per day. It was their way of saying they would tolerate it, but don't get greedy.

Here I am ten years later and I am still allowed to play at about half the places I used to. The place that was the most tolerant of me and of which I had the least fear ended up telling my I couldn't play anymore.

You will be banned from BJ at some point no matter how good you are. Success in BJ nowadays is more determined by how long you can last, not how good you are at counting.

Wow this is all very helpful. I was worried that I would have to talk to people to avoid detection. You have confirmed my concern hah. I'm just now getting good enough to keep the count with 2 other players. I have plenty of time to practice while I save up my seed bankroll. Its going to take me a while to save enough to play the bet spread I want to and still have a tolerable RoR. I'll be referencing this thread as I progress forward.

How many betting units were you putting up for your "big cover bet" at the beginning of some shoes? I hope you don't mind but I may steal your cover strategy at least until I learn how to play in my area.

[Northbend]

1. Before I ever even started, I went shopping at Good Will to find clothes to play the part. I am naturally very white color and look clean cut pretty much all the time. I figured if I were to be successful, I needed to match the look and actions of the other degenerates. I would often wear clothes that looked like I had just been painting and would always always have a beer in my hand (no complaints on that one).
2. I would play for a few hours at one joint then go to another (or if I won a lot quickly, I would leave). I would keep track of my yearly and lifetime win. If I were up twice as much at one place, I would play a bit more at another place. I figured that once I hit the $10k mark somewhere, that one extra digit might raise red flags in their minds. So I avoided that extra decimal place for as long as possible.
3. I figured out the best times to be at each place for both table availability and dealers/floor people I wanted to see.
4. I would talk constantly to everybody while playing. I would be so chatty that I wanted them to think there was no way I could possibly be counting.
5. I would make dumb plays here and there, and checked BA3 for the cost.
6. I would always stay on 16 and would never hit soft 18.
7. To avoid negative counts, I would white rabbit if there were other tables available. I would never Wong in.
8. I played with a player's card at local joints because they know my face. Even if they didn't know my real name, I figured they still would know who I was and would not let me play anyway once they booted me. I knew these casinos didn't share, so I wasn't worried about my mug spilling out nationally.
9. I would often bet big off the top. If I won, I left the bet out till I lost. If I lost the first hand, I'd go back down.
10. I would frequently do a meaningless progression. For example, if my low bet is $10 on my ramp, I would alter bets randomly between $5, $10, $15. This makes the average bet $10. This is better than betting $5 over and over then suddenly betting $80. I figured if my bets were "all over the place," I would look more like a chaotic gambler than a counter. Anything that looks random is always good. It also could have the benefit of them giving you a higher average bet for comps if you're on a card.

At some point, I knew they knew, but I was able to still get away with it for a long time because I was able to read between the lines in terms of their "daily" tolerance. I was asked by two different dealers at one joint how much I was trying to win every time I came in. I didn't figure it out at first, but I later realized that this was code for how much I intended to take from them per day. It was their way of saying they would tolerate it, but don't get greedy.

Here I am ten years later and I am still allowed to play at about half the places I used to. The place that was the most tolerant of me and of which I had the least fear ended up telling my I couldn't play anymore.

You will be banned from BJ at some point no matter how good you are. Success in BJ nowadays is more determined by how long you can last, not how good you are at counting.

Nice tutorial on cover play. I imagine you still do the doubles on soft eighteen even though you stay otherwise?

[marriedputter]

How many betting units were you putting up for your "big cover bet" at the beginning of some shoes? I hope you don't mind but I may steal your cover strategy at least until I learn how to play in my area.

If I had just finished a shoe where max bet was out due to a high count, I would leave it out. You have to push your bets back while they shuffle. So I would slide the bet back so it was ready to go on the first hand. That way, it looked like I was ready to keep the party going while they shuffled. Good for any eyes that may be watching. I try to imagine surveillance talking to the floor. I figure if they were thinking of coming after me, they may wait to see me place that foolish big bet at the beginning of the shoe.
This shouldn't be done every time because it's too costly. Besides, a big bet on the first hand every time will start to look like a system, which is exactly what you want to avoid. Everything you do should appear as random as possible.
You may certainly use my modus operandi. And remember, first impressions last the longest. If you play somewhere for the first time, you have permission to play a little dumb. There's nothing wrong with sacrificing a day or two of EV for the long run, but make sure you know you're being watched by the floor when you do.

[marriedputter]

Nice tutorial on cover play. I imagine you still do the doubles on soft eighteen even though you stay otherwise?

They say only pros and idiots split 10s. So most pros won't split. The next hand after that they could look for is how you play 18, both soft and a pair of 9's. Virtually no ploppy knows that 18 is a loser in the long run so they stay. If you're knowledgeable enough to play this hand correctly, you're knowledgeable enough to count. So I would stay with soft 18 against a 9, 10, or ace. But I would indeed always double when supposed to because thankfully there's enough ploppies that do that and it would be too costly anyway not to.
As far as 9's, I would always play this hand correctly too. It's not that frequent anyway and again it's too costly not to.

[aceside]

The logic that follows is that a pro must split 10s. Can somebody estimate the cost of not splitting 10s?

[marriedputter]

If you have BA3, read chapter 5 and pay particular attention to the table on page 62.