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Thread: Randomness of CSM

  1. #1


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    Randomness of CSM

    Hello,

    I would like to know if anybody here have any idea how would be the quickest and effective way to check and confirm if a specific CSM is totally random ? In that way I mean giving a total fair and random shuffle to the player.

    only serious ideas please

    thank you

  2. #2


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    Did you try to look into the US Patent ?

    Here's a link of what I mean: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6254096B1/en
    Try ''download PDF''
    G Man

  3. #3


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    CSMs are not random, but then again ASM shuffles and hand shuffles are not strictly random either. There are artifacts in the card stream of CSMs which are a by-product of how the machine works, both physically and due to the software. If you know what they are, and this is difficult because the software gets updated from time to time, some of these properties can be exploited. You will probably not be successful in getting anyone to tell you what they know, however.

    From the point of view of the average player, provided that the machine contains the cards that it is supposed to, the CSM card stream is random enough to provide a fair game as is the case with ASM shuffles and fair hand shuffles. Some even might say that the CSM game is better than a shoe game because there is no cut card effect.

  4. #4


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    I didn’t mean looking at physical patent. I know CSM can be random but in some places they are not and don’t provide random shuffle to the player. I would like to know if there is a quick and effective way to measure with statistics « subjectively » if the CSM I’m playing is random

  5. #5


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    Thank you for your answer. Hand shuffle are what I can call random. There is some casinos in the world where they provide non random shuffles with one2six to increase house edge or other. So what I call random mean that if the house edge is supposed to be -0.52%, how can I know that it’s not different like -1% or even worse ?
    Hand shuffle or CSM doesn’t change much, when it’s random statistics still should remain the same …

    How can I know if I’m playing a CSM which is fair like a shoe or a CSM with non random shuffle that can affect our edge ?

  6. #6


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    How to know quick if we are playing a FAIR shuffle ?

  7. #7


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    There is no quick way. You would need to observe hundreds of thousands of cards dealt and/or play hundreds of thousands of hands in order to get a statistically meaningful sample for analysis.

    BTW, making claims of casino cheating without hard evidence will put you on the naughty list here.

  8. #8


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    I’m not here to give fault informations
    2 different director first told me that I can’t prove it anyway when I suspected that their shuffle was not fair and then in a third casino a table chef (pit boss) admitted to me that they just changed the software to a very basic one when I noticed that they have stopped cheating with non random shuffle.
    He told me that they have softwares that can rearrange the card in a non random way.

    Anyway I’m not here to discuss about that but ONLY if someone know a way for me to know if casino is dealing me a fair game.

    Thank you

  9. #9
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Why would a pit boss admit to such a thing?
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  10. #10


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    Pit bosses or floor supervisors don't know shit about these machines. Maintenance personnel might be a different story.

  11. #11
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    For a shuffle, these methods do not work without a massive number of data points -- which you cannot obtain.
    Last edited by Norm; 04-14-2023 at 05:06 PM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  12. #12


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    I’m very familiar with directors and pitboss in Europe so they told me.
    European casinos and US casinos are different. Also I didn’t find those non random shuffle in the US where everything seem fine to me and of course it’s not everywhere in Europe.

    May I ask you if it’s possible to observe 2 different shuffle with different software ? In this way I mean that the oldest software from one2six would seem more « basic » to observe than some very new ? But both STILL fair for the player ?

    I’m asking that cause you point a interesting point for me when you say that every machine has a kind of shuffle established by setting and constructor but that would be fair to average player. I assume from that that there might be different kind of shuffle depending on the constructor (there is not only one2six in the world) or by the version of the software itself ?

    Thank you

  13. #13


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    I think when we see really weird combinations come from shuffle machines, we tend to think they are rigged. The other day I had a 7 card 21 dealt to me using an ASM. The dealer was more shocked than I was. At a local casino that uses ASM's the dealer seems to get a lot of two card 20's all day. One day I just counted the number of times that the dealer broke per shoe all day and it was right in line with normal statistics.

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