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Thread: Casino Verite - "Real Pivot"

  1. #1


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    Casino Verite - "Real Pivot"

    Hi -

    What does "Real Pivot" mean when editing a playing strategy in casino verite? I'm looking to a create a surrender rule for "surrender at any negative running count". Sounds like maybe that could be real pivot? But I couldn't find a definition in the manual.

    My (H17) strategy had been set to:
    15v9 surr >= TC2
    15v10 surr >=TC0
    15vA surr >=TC-1

    but what I really wanted was:
    15v10 surr >=RC0

    This worked fine when TC division was set to floor. If had a running -1, I think CVBJ would floor to a TC -1. I switched to truncate TC division. As expected a running -1 doesn't floor to a true -1. But now I need to change the 15v10 rule. Is that what real pivot means?
    I'll also do this on 16v10 stand/hit.

  2. #2
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Where do you see the term "real pivot"? What kind of strategy is this?

    EDIT: Ahh, realpivot is pivot minus IRC. This can be used by folks who modify IRCs.
    Last edited by Norm; 02-16-2023 at 11:43 AM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by seedandfeed View Post
    I switched to truncate TC division. As expected a running -1 doesn't floor to a true -1.
    You meant to write "truncate." Any reason why you want to switch to the less accurate truncate over flooring?

    Don

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    Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. I might be misunderstanding what you're trying to illustrate, though. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    You meant to write "truncate."
    When I have true count conversion set to floor, a running -1 divided by 6, floors to a true -1.
    When I have true count conversion set to truncate, a running -1, divided by 6, does not floor to -1. TC is 0.
    Thus when I switch to the truncate TC division option, as expected, a running -1 doesn't floor to a true -1.
    Maybe that's a weird way to say it, but I'm more familiar with the term floor than truncate.

    Floor
    floor (2).jpg

    Truncate
    truncate.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Any reason why you want to switch to the less accurate truncate over flooring?
    Suppose that someone were playing a 1,000 deck shoe, and the running count dropped to -1. I would imagine that -1/1000 ~= TC0 is a more accurate statement than -1/1000 ~= TC-1.

    Ultimately though, I use it because that's what BJA teaches. It's kind of the lingua franca for test-outs and practicing with others, so I adopted it. For what it's worth, they also use truncate for the deck estimation divisor. I originally learned rounding deck estimation because I started with casino verite and switched over to truncate for the same reason.

    Thanks
    seedandfeed

  5. #5


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    Norm - what would you say is the best way to set up the playing rule "stand a 16 v 10 if RC > 0"? or "surrender a 15 v 10 if RC >= 0"? Since it looks like real pivot is not what I'm looking for.

    Thanks

  6. #6
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    There is an option on Option-Settings-TC Calc which uses RC for all zero indices. There is no CVBJ option for selecting specific indices. CVData and CVCX have that; but I haven't added it to CVBJ.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by seedandfeed View Post
    Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. I might be misunderstanding what you're trying to illustrate, though. Sorry.



    When I have true count conversion set to floor, a running -1 divided by 6, floors to a true -1.
    When I have true count conversion set to truncate, a running -1, divided by 6, does not floor to -1. TC is 0.
    Thus when I switch to the truncate TC division option, as expected, a running -1 doesn't floor to a true -1.
    Maybe that's a weird way to say it, but I'm more familiar with the term floor than truncate.

    Floor
    floor (2).jpg

    Truncate
    truncate.jpg



    Suppose that someone were playing a 1,000 deck shoe, and the running count dropped to -1. I would imagine that -1/1000 ~= TC0 is a more accurate statement than -1/1000 ~= TC-1.

    Ultimately though, I use it because that's what BJA teaches. It's kind of the lingua franca for test-outs and practicing with others, so I adopted it. For what it's worth, they also use truncate for the deck estimation divisor. I originally learned rounding deck estimation because I started with casino verite and switched over to truncate for the same reason.

    Thanks
    seedandfeed
    You use for playing whatever was used to create the indices in the first place. If you're truncating, why would you be discussing what the index does or doesn't FLOOR to? You're confused and are overthinking this.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    There is an option on Option-Settings-TC Calc which uses RC for all zero indices. There is no CVBJ option for selecting specific indices. CVData and CVCX have that; but I haven't added it to CVBJ.
    Thanks for the info. Selecting specific indices to be RC would be super helpful. For example it'd be nice to have "hit 13v2 if TC<0" and "hit 16v10 if RC<0" in the same hard hit table.

    Thanks
    Seedandfeed

    *removed "stand 16v10 if RC>0"
    Last edited by seedandfeed; 02-17-2023 at 01:05 PM.

  9. #9


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    Except that you stand on 16 vs. 10 if the RC = 0, also.

    Don

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Except that you stand on 16 vs. 10 if the RC = 0, also.

    Don
    Yes, thanks! This helped realize something. I think BJA's testing suite may have a bug. But their chart is correct, if you consider 0 to be a positive an integer, which I do.

    BJA Members _ H17 Deviations — Mozilla Firefox 2_17_2023 3_15_52 PM.jpg

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by seedandfeed View Post
    But their chart is correct, if you consider 0 to be a positive an integer, which I do.
    No, their chart isn't correct. And, you may consider 0 anything that makes you happy, but it isn't a positive integer. It's a non-negative integer, which isn't the same thing.

    Don

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Any reason why you want to switch to the less accurate truncate over flooring?
    What makes truncate less accurate than flooring *for true count division?

  13. #13


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    The 0 TC for truncating is about 43% of all counts!! It's double the width of all the other counts.

    Don

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