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Thread: Is it worth?!, help for a newbie (europe)

  1. #1


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    Is it worth?!, help for a newbie (europe)

    Hello Forum!
    — Here is my first post so please bear with me —

    New to the world of AP and eager to learn. Behind me, I have JUST 100h of practice and probably 50h of game at the tables. My current Bankroll is rather modest….
    atm I am waiting a little longer to see my bankroll grow a little more (if) to get myself good software to run my own numbers….



    I recently came across the following game and I don’t know what to make of it

    6DK ENHC S17 DAS ES pen 75% - 85%
    Min. 5$ max 100$

    Also important
    - the first 3 cards get burned after the dealer shuffle.

    - If the first 2 cards are black, you get 5$ for a min. bet of 25$ Per box.

    For 50$ or bigger bet 10$. Per box.



    What do you guys make of it?


    Thanks a lot for your inside people!!!
    Last edited by arco-iris; 01-18-2023 at 05:15 AM.

  2. #2


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    If it is really full ES (i.e. you can surrender vs T and Ace), then that is quite powerful and is worth 0.629% alone in EV According to the table on page 492-493 of BJA3. This game has a positive player edge when flat betting and using basic strategy alone. Don and I discuss this game in our book and I'll tease you by saying that it has a very healthy SCORE no matter how you play it. https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/sh...5-Our-new-book

    We need clarification on the side bet. When you say "if the first 2 cards are black" do you mean the first 2 out of 3 burned cards? If so then it means they are showing you the burned cards, which is a good thing. If not, then consider the three burned cards to be behind the cut card when estimating remaining decks.

    The side bet is garbage any way you look at it. For an event which happens only 1 in 4 rounds, the break-even payout is $75 for a $25 bet, not $5 and $150 for a $50 bet, not $10. And the EV gets worse if you do not bet exactly these amounts. For these exact bet amounts, more than 83% of the cards would need to be black for this to be a positive bet.
    Last edited by Gronbog; 01-18-2023 at 08:38 AM. Reason: tupos

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    If it is really full ES (i.e. you can surrender vs T and Ace), then that is quite powerful and is worth 0.629% alone in EV According to the table on page 492-493 of BJA3. This game has a positive player edge when flat betting and using basic strategy alone. Don and I discuss this game in our book and I'll tease you by saying that it has a very healthy SCORE no matter how you play it. https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/sh...5-Our-new-book

    We need clarification on the side bet. When you say "if the first 2 cards are black" do you mean the first 2 out of 3 burned cards? If so then it means they are showing you the burned cards, which is a good thing. If not, then consider the three burned cards to be behind the cut card when estimating remaining decks.

    The side bet is garbage any way you look at it. For an event which happens only 1 in 4 rounds, the break-even payout is $75 for a $25 bet, not $5 and $150 for a $50 bet, not $10. And the EV gets worse if you do not bet exactly these amounts. For these exact bet amounts, more than 83% of the cards would need to be black for this to be a positive bet.


    Thanks Gronbog for taking the time and excuse me in advance for not being so clear. English is not my mother tongue. And just learning the BJ lingo.

    Here are some clarifications about the specifics of the game.

    • It is not full ES. BUT Surrender vs anything including T excluding Aces.
    • also might be good to mention that you can surrender at any point during the hand and not just before the first card of the hand is dealt.


    (Many thanks also for the link I’m sure very sure I will get myself a copy of the BJ3. Am reading only fantastic things about it )


    About the 3 burned cards -
    After the dealer shuffles for every new shoe, the first 3 cards get burned. Not just 1 as customary. Also, these 3 cards are burned face down, meaning we cannot see what they are.


    About the side bed -

    • It has nothing to do with the burned cards.
    • Remember that table bet min is 5$ and max. is 100$


    • Pays out when a box is dealt the first 2 cards black.


    The way it works is for every hand you get dealt, and if your bet is 25$ you receive a bonus chip for 5$.


    If your bet is 50$ or more you receive 2 x 5$ bonus chips.
    If you bet the 7 boxes of the table at 50$, you will receive 14 x 5$ bonus chips.

    This 5$ bonus chips cannot be exchanged for cash and need to be played. If you play them and win, you will receive (for each of them) as pay out a 5$ NORMAL chip ALONE and they get to keep the bonus chips.


    I am not sure if I quite get your logic about whether is worth it or not… I assumed since the event happens 1 every 4 hands. At EV+ was a no-brainier to raise one’s min bet to 25$ if bankroll allowed…. how to calculate considering that is a bonus chip and not a cash chip and ALSO that one needs to win with it a future hand. That was exactly what I didn’t know how to calculate…
    Last edited by arco-iris; 01-19-2023 at 03:34 AM.

  4. #4


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    ES10 is still valuable. I'm on my tablet and my copy of BJA3 is not handy, so I can't post the exact value right now.

    I thought that you had to place a separate side bet to get paid for the two black cards. If it is just an extra payout on your main bet, then it's a bonus which will get paid 1 out 4 rounds on average. The payout appears to be in "play once" promo chips which are worth about half of their value when played on blackjack. They are worth almost their full face value if you play them on a single number on roulette, if they will let you. Most casinos know this and restrict them to "even money" bets. Google Beyond Coupons by Grosjean and read about what he calls Funny Chips.

    So if you bet exactly $25 or $50, the promo chips are worth almost an extra 5% when played on a single number on roulette and almost 2.5% when played on even money bets like blackjack or baccarat. In either case, I think you should just flat bet $50 on this game and collect as many promo chips as you can while it lasts.

    Good luck!

  5. #5
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arco-iris View Post
    If you bet the 7 boxes of the table at 50$, you will receive 14 x 5$ bonus chips.
    Its very good.
    "Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine" (Jesus)

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    ... game and collect as many promo chips as you can while it lasts.
    Good luck!
    Great thanks again!

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    If it is just an extra payout on your main bet, then it's a bonus which will get paid 1 out 4 rounds on average.
    Note that this applies to the burn cards for each new SHOE, not each new round! Big difference!

    Don

  8. #8


    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    No. He made it clear that it's on every round , is not a separate side bet and is not associated with the burned cards, which are not shown.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    No. He made it clear that it's on every round , is not a separate side bet and is not associated with the burned cards, which are not shown.
    Yes, sorry. Seemed weird. Just a promo giveaway. Nothing for the player to do.

    Don

  10. #10


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    [QUOTE=Gronbog;307762]ES10 is still valuable. I'm on my tablet and my copy of BJA3 is not handy, so I can't post the exact value right now./QUOTE]


    Yes, looking at those pages: the E10 rule provides a 0.241 benefit to player advantage; not as good as full ES, but certainly excellent.
    Added to the other rules that you mention, it appears you have a game with --0.275% player advantage. That's really good to begin with.
    The bonus dummy checks would shave off that third digit, but not much more than a couple thou beyond that.

    Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

  11. #11


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    The bonuses are worth 20% in promo chips with each spot hitting every four rounds on average when you bet exactly $25 or $50. That makes it 5% in promo chips overall. As I said above, the promo chips are worth anywhere from almost half their value to almost their full value depending on how you play them. So almost 2.5% to almost 5% of additional EV resulting in a healthy player advantage.

    Am I misunderstanding this?

  12. #12


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    yes, that makes a lot more sents,

    pun intended.

    Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

  13. #13


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    Greetings dear Don and Dave, I acquired your new masterpiece The Hi-Lo Card Counting System: A Complete Guide to Index Play, wonderful work of art. I have a question, the rules of the casino where I go are fabulous 6D, S17, DAS, RSA, SPL3 OBBO, No peek and a great ES10, a godsend. And should I continue to use, as I always have, table 51.1? which is for ES10 ENHC despite the fact that where I play does not have ENHC, it is rather OBBO, as previously mentioned. Thank you very much in advance.

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