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Thread: CVCX V6 Wonging feature

  1. #27
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Seriously? I don't know what I'm supposed to say about a fuzzy screenshot. All I can tell is it is DOS based software with a Windows-like UI.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  2. #28


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    Fair enough. I sent you the file.

  3. #29


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    Thanks for weighing in, Don. I wasn't trying to bait you. I already know you think SCORE is the best thing since sliced bread!

    The game of blackjack doesn't exist in a vacuum where some set of predetermined conditions is universal. As you already acknowledged, SCORE makes many assumptions. Let's discuss a few of those:

    1) 10k BR - what if your BR is $5k or $50k?
    2) full kelly - every player has a different level of risk tolerance.
    3) 100 rounds dealt per hour - this is a convenient number to work with but try getting that at a full table!
    4) optimal betting down to the dollar - does it look natural betting $27, $71, $93, $118, etc?

    You will argue these assumptions are for purposes of game comparison and that they level the playing field between different card counting systems.

    So what's your point? Both ways of playing are patently absurd. SCORE tells you that the most efficient use of your capital is to spread $7 to $140, win about $25 an hour, with CE = $12.50, and the CE/WR = the classic 0.50 for optimal betting.
    In your example, you spread from $7 to $140? Seriously?! Who bets a minimum of $7? What if the table minimum were $10? $15 $25? Now 'C-SCORE' doesn't tell the full story as RoR has gone up. Let's throw another wrinkle into the discussion. What if one game you can get in 80 rounds per hour but another game you only get 50? How does SCORE account for that? C-SCORE could I guess. Also, what if you have another opportunity outside of BJ to make money? CE gives the opportunity cost of your play based upon your risk tolerance while SCORE does no such thing! I think that is pretty cool.

    The point is that CE gives a better indication of the stronger game for the player, unlike SCORE. Now maybe my initial example wasn't the best. Okay, well how about a game where a player spreads $1 to $20 with $10k BR, and plays another game where he spreads from $15 to $150 with same rules. These are two different casinos so each have different minimums and maximums. In the real world, most recreational counters do not travel so they have to choose between the nearest games. SCORE will give the impression that the first game is superior, while CE will correctly determines the latter game is a better use of the player's time.

    MJ

  4. #30
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    1) 10k BR - what if your BR is $5k or $50k?
    2) full kelly - every player has a different level of risk tolerance.
    3) 100 rounds dealt per hour - this is a convenient number to work with but try getting that at a full table!
    4) optimal betting down to the dollar - does it look natural betting $27, $71, $93, $118, etc?
    None of this is true for C-SCORE, which is what CVCX calculates.

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    CE gives the opportunity cost of your play based upon your risk tolerance while SCORE does no such thing! I think that is pretty cool.
    C-SCORE does.

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    SCORE will give the impression that the first game is superior, while CE will correctly determines the latter game is a better use of the player's time.
    Again, use C-SCORE. CVCX calculates both. But, users look at SCORE or EV.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  5. #31
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    1) 10k BR - what if your BR is $5k or $50k?
    2) full kelly - every player has a different level of risk tolerance.
    3) 100 rounds dealt per hour - this is a convenient number to work with but try getting that at a full table!
    4) optimal betting down to the dollar - does it look natural betting $27, $71, $93, $118, etc?
    None of these standards are mandatory for C-SCORE which is what CVCX calculates.

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    CE gives the opportunity cost of your play based upon your risk tolerance while SCORE does no such thing! I think that is pretty cool.
    EV using C-SCORE does.

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    SCORE will give the impression that the first game is superior, while CE will correctly determines the latter game is a better use of the player's time.
    Again, use C-SCORE. CVCX calculates both. But, users look at SCORE or EV.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  6. #32


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    You're entitled to your opinion, but, of course, you know I disagree. If it's a better use of your time to play a game with 28% ROR and CE/WR of 0.21, compared to the other ROR = 0% and CE/WR = 0.93, well, go play it!

    It's clear that the first game wins more money per hour, but that's easy to do. SCORE was created to tell you the "quality" of the game. You want to bet half-Kelly, wonderful. I'm all for it. But, do it within the context of lowering your ROR, while still betting optimally. Just round the $7 to $5 or $10. The resulting game will be infinitely better than what you're suggesting.

    Don

  7. #33


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    None of these standards are mandatory for C-SCORE which is what CVCX calculates.
    Does CVCX calculate C-SCORE? Well yes and no. It all depends on how one defines C-SCORE. I suppose it calculates C-SCORE in many respects but it assumes 100 rounds dealt per hour which is a condition for SCORE. Even if the user adjusts rounds per hour to some figure other than 100, SCORE remains unchanged.

    EV using C-SCORE does.
    EV using C-SCORE determines opportunity cost? Since when? If both EV and CE determine opportunity cost, then there would be no need for both. EV and CE are totally different concepts. Do no conflate the two. EV is what you expect to earn on average, while CE is your risk adjusted return. CE applies a penalty to EV for variance. They say if your hourly CE compares to what you earn after taxes in your job, then the game is worthwhile!

    MJ

  8. #34


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    I thought I would summarize my suggestions for future CVCX/CVData updates--

    1) Allow wonging out in a heads up game based upon penetration level.
    2) Allow player to play off the top of the shoe, and then exit and re-enter based upon penetration level.
    3) Add CE to ChartIT!
    4) Add EV/shoe and CE/shoe to CVData. CVData already provides SD/shoe so why not the other two to make it complete?

    Implementation of all or any of these would be appreciated.

    MJ

  9. #35
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    Does CVCX calculate C-SCORE? Well yes and no. It all depends on how one defines C-SCORE. I suppose it calculates C-SCORE in many respects but it assumes 100 rounds dealt per hour which is a condition for SCORE. Even if the user adjusts rounds per hour to some figure other than 100, SCORE remains unchanged.
    True. But, it does not require optimal betting.

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    EV using C-SCORE determines opportunity cost? Since when? If both EV and CE determine opportunity cost, then there would be no need for both. EV and CE are totally different concepts. Do no conflate the two. EV is what you expect to earn on average, while CE is your risk adjusted return. CE applies a penalty to EV for variance. They say if your hourly CE compares to what you earn after taxes in your job, then the game is worthwhile!
    So use CE if you wish. Few people do.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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