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Thread: CVCX Backcounting

  1. #14
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Interesting. In the decades this has been around, no one, even former MIT team members, have asked for these stats.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  2. #15


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    I'm surprised to hear that. Perhaps you should ask the former President of Amphibian Investments. He can corroborate my claim. I wish I hadn't lost the binder I was given that included simulations that they ran but that's another story.

    If you were going to use a reverse wonging strategy, do you think it would be easier to count every round that you play in the shoe or simply track how many shoes you played in? For every shoe there is an EV and SD. This makes record keeping a bit easier. Now the call-in game was a whole another beast. You can watch Hot Shoe to know what they tracked for that.

  3. #16
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    Perhaps you should ask the former President of Amphibian Investments
    I very much like Semyon. I have an offhand, humorous mention of him in my book that almost no one will connect to him. (Can anyone find it?) We had a mutually beneficial agreement ages ago where he sold my software in his classes. He is long out of the BJ world. And yes, I have many team manuals in my library -- which I shall never make widely available. Both Semyon and MIT Mike (who also sold my software) invited me to their classes. But, I can't stand classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    He can corroborate my claim. I wish I hadn't lost the binder I was given that included simulations that they ran but that's another story.
    And many of those that still exist now use CV software, as if nothing in the tech world or understanding of the game or changes in games or techniques have improved over decades.

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    Now the call-in game was a whole another beast. You can watch Hot Shoe to know what they tracked for that.
    What, I should watch an 18 year old video of ten folks, nine of whom I know (the other died long ago)? Coincidentally I have been working the last three weeks on an update to work I did ages ago with one of the most famous teams on a new, related twist.
    Last edited by Norm; 10-31-2022 at 05:48 PM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  4. #17


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    Most of the questions you have been asking are in the Help.
    Click the Customize button, right next to the Call CVCX button, on the main CVData stats screen. That changes CVData to display several stats the same as CVCX. CVCX only has one method.
    Norm, this does not set the performance metrics in CVCX to 'rounds played'. It works for CVData, but when I call CVCX from CVData the stats are still for rounds observed. Is there a way to do this on CVCX? Sorry if my initial question was unclear.

    MJ

  5. #18
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    As I said, CVCX only has one method.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  6. #19


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    I'm still confused on how CVData accounts for rounds when Force Shuffle on Exit is off and Find Table Delay is on. From what you wrote prior, the counter leaves the table at the shuffle and rounds get wasted searching for another table. To put this in context, suppose there are 6 rounds left in the shoe when you wong out and FTD is set to 10 rounds. Does CVData count this as 10 rounds dealt but not played? If the answer is yes, then how is this scenario any different than FSE and FTD both set to on? Would both scenarios not materialize to 10 rounds dealt but not played?

    On a separate note, why does CVData show 61.5% rounds played for playing 1,263,742,416 out of 2 billion? It is actually 63.2%.

    MJ

  7. #20
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    From the Help:
    > Force Shuffle - When set, the dealer will shuffle when you Wong-out.
    > Find Table Delay - When you Wong-out, it takes awhile to find another table to observe. Enter the number of hands it takes to start observing again here. This number will be added to the number of hands observed but not played.

    With force shuffle on exit off and find table delay set to 0, the player stands behind the table after wonging out. The dealer continues playing and the player observing. If enter shoe multiple times is on, he may reenter. If force shuffle is on, the dealer shuffles on wonging out.

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    On a separate note, why does CVData show 61.5% rounds played for playing 1,263,742,416 out of 2 billion? It is actually 63.2%.
    You are probably looking at hands played, not rounds. This includes splits, as stated in the Help.

    Wonging is much more complex than handled by older simulators.

    wong83.jpg
    Last edited by Norm; 11-04-2022 at 06:28 AM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  8. #21


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    With force shuffle on exit off and find table delay set to 0, the player stands behind the table after wonging out. The dealer continues playing and the player observing. If enter shoe multiple times is on, he may reenter. If force shuffle is on, the dealer shuffles on wonging out.
    This I already know. But my question is when FSE is off and FTD is on. By your definitions, the counter who wongs out under these settings should stand behind the table observing, wait for the shuffle, and then leave in search of another shoe. It isn't practical but that is what these definitions would imply.

    In short, I am simply asking what is the difference between the following two scenarios-

    FSE - OFF, FTD - ON Here player wongs out and 'x' rounds are spent searching for another table which count towards total rounds dealt. Dealer deals until completion of shoe. So are those remaining rounds until the shuffle counted towards total rounds dealt?
    FSE - ON, FTD - ON Here dealer shuffles after player wongs out and 'x' rounds are spent searching for another table which are counted towards total rounds dealt.

    MJ
    Last edited by MJ1; 11-04-2022 at 08:53 AM.

  9. #22
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    If FSE is off, the rounds left in the shoe are still counted. All possible combinations may not appear to make sense. The point in CVData is to provide a massive number of options and allow non-contradictory option combinations as I cannot predict what combinations may make sense in some future situation.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  10. #23


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    Thanks. When I get my license for CVData will I have to rerun my simulations in order to get valid results?

  11. #24
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Yes. The data generated by CVData in demo mode is substantially altered at every level of data collection. All of the tens of thousands of data points are not accurate due to random alteration pre-sim. It's just a demo of functionality. Only thing that is the same is speed.
    Last edited by Norm; 11-04-2022 at 05:17 PM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  12. #25


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    So I just tried running my first multi-hand sim in CVdata. This seemingly requires using the multi-tracking sim which in turn tracks every player at the table. The simulation speed is slowed down to a snail pace. Why is it necessary to track every player for a multi-hand sim? Most users who sim multiple hands could care less with the performance of other players at the table.

    Why is it when I call CVCX from CVData for this sim the # hands played is one instead of two? The betting strategy in CVData incorporated 2 hands yet CVCX is displaying output for 1 hand.

    MJ

  13. #26
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    So I just tried running my first multi-hand sim in CVdata. This seemingly requires using the multi-tracking sim which in turn tracks every player at the table. The simulation speed is slowed down to a snail pace.
    You must have some speedy snail.

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    Why is it necessary to track every player for a multi-hand sim? Most users who sim multiple hands could care less with the performance of other players at the table.
    You don't need to specify more than one player. If you do, it keeps data for all. You can go to Nuances-Data and turn off Mass Data to reduce the amount of data kept.

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    Why is it when I call CVCX from CVData for this sim the # hands played is one instead of two? The betting strategy in CVData incorporated 2 hands yet CVCX is displaying output for 1 hand.
    It shows two hands where two hands are played. If you have more than one player, make certain you have the correct seat number selected at the upper-left of CVCX.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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