88 v 10 and 16v10

**pbj** · 10-09-2022, 08:28 PM

I am using Hi-Low counting. Deviations, to my understanding, says not to hit 16v10 on a positive count "Stand 16 vs 10 => 0" and was curious if this applies to a pair of 88 where you are always supposed to split.

Currently I am playing
6 Decks
abt 1/2 deck penetration
hit soft 17
Doble any
split any pair up to 3 times (except splitting aces you only get 1 card)

**Intermediate** · 10-10-2022, 06:55 AM

You should review the order of decisions. Split decisions come before Hit/Stand. Split 88 vs 10 when TC < 8. See the asterisk (*) on the PBJ chart for the exception to the general rule.

**Cacarulo** · 10-10-2022, 08:15 AM

Over time, many of the indices published several decades ago have been updated. Today we can say that the floored index for 88vT is as follows:
(assuming the remaining decks are calculated to the nearest half) Split if TC < +10* (S17 and H17) and stand if TC >= +10.
It is important to note that if the remaining decks are calculated exactly, the index is one point lower: split if TC < +9* (S17 and H17).
Obviously, if LSR were allowed, you should surrender with a TC >= +2 instead of splitting.
However, it is not clear what the penetration of the game is. I assumed 4.5/6.

Sincerely,
Cac

**DSchles** · 10-10-2022, 09:12 AM

Two things. He did mention the penetration of the game. It was 5.5/6. Also, he didn't mention if DAS is permitted, which changes the surrender index. It is 2 is DAS is permitted but 1 if it is not.

Don

**Cacarulo** · 10-10-2022, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by DSchles

Two things. He did mention the penetration of the game. It was 5.5/6. Also, he didn't mention if DAS is permitted, which changes the surrender index. It is 2 is DAS is permitted but 1 if it is not.

Don

Yes, I thought at first of 5.5/6 but then I said, where is this gold mine? maybe it's a mistake. Then I thought of 0.5/6 that could be the case for a CSM or some online casino.
That is why it was not clear to me what the penetration was.
Regarding DAS, it's true, it doesn't say so and I assumed it was DAS. My mistake.
If it is NDAS then the indices would be: Split if TC < 6* (S17/H17) and Surrender if TC >= +1.

Sincerely,
Cac

**pbj** · 10-10-2022, 01:15 PM

I am still getting use to the language, the dealers normally use about 5 - 5 1/2 decks of a 6 deck shoe
das is allowed except with aces where you only get j1 j card for each ace when you split
surrender is not allowed

**Cacarulo** · 10-10-2022, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by pbj

I am still getting use to the language, the dealers normally use about 5 - 5 1/2 decks of a 6 deck shoe
das is allowed except with aces where you only get j1 j card for each ace when you split
surrender is not allowed

For a penetration of 5.5/6 and DAS this particular index has changes with respect to the 4.5/6. Assuming that the remaining decks are calculated to the nearest half, we have:
(S17/H17) Split if TC < +11* and Stand if TC >= +11
If Surrender were allowed the index would be +3.

Sincerely,
Cac

**pbj** · 10-10-2022, 04:08 PM

Thank you, I was watching some counters and notice they had stayed on tc about 3, i dont know the rules they were playing but made me second guess myself

**Norm** · 10-10-2022, 05:05 PM

Don't watch other people that you think are counting. Arnold Snyder wrote an article about that some decades ago. There are many kinds of strategies and methods of gaining information.

**Secretariat** · 10-10-2022, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Cacarulo

(S17/H17) Split if TC < +11* and Stand if TC >= +11
Cac

Hello Cac.

Not sure what is the frequency of TC >= +11 but it's rare. Also rare is a TC of 0 with a ratio of 789/TJQK of 25% or less, in which case, hitting 88vT would often be slightly better than splitting or standing. It probably happens more often at DD than at 6D.

1) So what would be frequency of TC0 with the ratio of the 789 grouping vs TJQK being 25% or less at DD and 6D with 75% pen in both cases? I suspect it would be more frequent than TC >= +11 but I don't know how to calculate the frequency.

2) Can you demonstrate how to calculate the frequency of that particular situation?

Thanks

**G Man** · 10-11-2022, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Norm

Don't watch other people that you think are counting. Arnold Snyder wrote an article about that some decades ago. There are many kinds of strategies and methods of gaining information.

You have it here: https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/gamb...rategy-puzzle/

**Norm** · 10-11-2022, 12:39 PM

That's it. Two decades ago.

**Cacarulo** · 10-11-2022, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Secretariat

Hello Cac.

Not sure what is the frequency of TC >= +11 but it's rare. Also rare is a TC of 0 with a ratio of 789/TJQK of 25% or less, in which case, hitting 88vT would often be slightly better than splitting or standing. It probably happens more often at DD than at 6D.

1) So what would be frequency of TC0 with the ratio of the 789 grouping vs TJQK being 25% or less at DD and 6D with 75% pen in both cases? I suspect it would be more frequent than TC >= +11 but I don't know how to calculate the frequency.

2) Can you demonstrate how to calculate the frequency of that particular situation?

Thanks

I don't understand the question very well, are we talking about hi-lo? Because in hi-lo and for a TC0 I have not found a 25% ratio between 789s / tens. The minimum is approximately 72% and 69% in 2D.
The calculation is not simple and requires a combinatorial analysis that analyzes the composition of each subset whose TC is equal to zero.
Or maybe I'm missing something. Do you have any example of this? I refer to a subset whose TC is equal to zero and in turn the ratio between 789s / tens is less than 25%. That would be helpful.

Sincerely,
Cac