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Thread: Double Down on Soft 12

  1. #21


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    i have a similar question too. one of the online bj i play here in asia, they allow you to hit or double down after split aces but not re-split them. should i double down when the dealer has 4, 5, 6?

  2. #22


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    Quote Originally Posted by hwjman View Post
    i have a similar question too. one of the online bj i play here in asia, they allow you to hit or double down after split aces but not re-split them. should i double down when the dealer has 4, 5, 6?
    When resplitting is not allowed, Double A-A vs 6 (if allowed) if:
    (s17) number of decks <= 12
    (h17) always
    otherwise hit

    When resplitting is not allowed, Double A-A vs 5 (if allowed) if:
    (s17) decks <= 2
    (h17) decks <= 2
    otherwise hit

    hit A-A vs 4 if resplit is not allowed, do not double

    k_c

  3. #23


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    Your answer doesn't seem to correspond to the question. Read it again.

    Don

  4. #24


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Your answer doesn't seem to correspond to the question. Read it again.

    Don
    Sorry Don, why do you say that the answer does not correspond to the question?
    If you are not allowed to re-split aces but you are allowed to hit or double down after splitting the first pair of aces dealt, I think K_C's answer is correct.
    In that case we are facing a true soft-12.

    Sincerely,
    Cac

  5. #25


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    Quote Originally Posted by hwjman View Post
    have a similar question too. one of the online bj i play here in asia, they allow you to hit or double down after split aces but not re-split them. should i double down when the dealer has 4, 5, 6?
    You don't state the rules, but for using 6D S17 I get the following indices to double A,A when you can't split:

    A,A vs 3: +9
    A,A vs 4: +4
    A,A vs 5: +1
    A,A vs 6: 0

    For 6D H17, I get

    A,A vs 3: +8
    A,A vs 4: +4
    A,A vs 5: +1
    A,A vs 6: 0

    These data were extracted from the sims I ran to generate indices for the upcoming book from Don and I. Too be fair, though, these specific plays are not discussed.

  6. #26


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    I should add the the above is for games where you can hit after splitting aces, as hwjman stated. It is not the same as the UP Michigan games MWP described, where your only choices are to double or stand. You can find the correct strategy for those games at

    https://wizardofodds.com/games/black...plitting-aces/

    Note that for most hands which you would normally hit, the correct strategy is to double for as little as possible.
    Last edited by Gronbog; 09-22-2022 at 09:51 AM.

  7. #27


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    These data were extracted from the sims I ran to generate indices for the upcoming book from Don and I. Too be fair, though, these specific plays are not discussed.
    Gronbog and Don, when do you expect your new book to be available? Will there be a kindle version of the book?

  8. #28


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    Anthony Curtis said before Christmas. We shall see. I'm going to see him next week and will discuss. Don't know about Kindle.

    Don

  9. #29


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    Apparently this thread is talking about two different sets of rules, one of which is clear and the other is not.

    1) The OP states that the rules are as follows: 6D,S17,DOA,DAS,SPA1,NS and the decks are shuffled after each hand.
    As can be deduced from the photo of the basic strategy, it is possible to DD with soft-12, that is, after splitting a pair of aces and receiving
    another ace in one of the hands (or in both).
    Under this scenario it is only possible to count cards if there are multiple players at the table. Obviously the bets will be flat.
    If the player is not counting cards the basic strategy is the one mentioned by k_c.
    Therefore, the basic strategy would be:
    6D, S17 (or H17)
    AAv6 ==> DD
    AAv5 ==> H
    AAv4 ==> H
    (Even removing three or four aces is still the same)
    The expected values can be verified in BJA3.

    2) The second set of rules has not been specified. If we assume that there is no shuffling after each hand, counting cards would make more sense in this case.
    Gronbog assumes 6D (S17 or H17) and Hi-Lo as the counting system.
    The indices are fine, but there is a little detail that was overlooked in their generation. For example:
    AAv6 assumes that two aces and a six were removed from the pack and this implies that when you receive that hand you are NOT able to split the pair of aces.
    What would have to be done is to remove three aces and a six to make the calculation since the soft-12 appears after splitting the first pair.
    What is the difference? Let's see:

    a) S17

    AAv6 ==> DD if TC >= 0 (two aces and a six removed)
    AAv6 ==> DD if TC >= -1 (three aces and a six removed)

    b) H17

    AAv6 ==> DD if TC >= -1 (two aces and a six removed)
    AAv6 ==> DD if TC >= -2 (three aces and a six removed)

    Sincerely,
    Cac

  10. #30


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    When resplitting is not allowed, Double A-A vs 6 (if allowed) if:
    (s17) number of decks <= 12
    (h17) always
    otherwise hit

    Correct. By example for 6 decks, I got:

    s (17)
    A, A vs 6

    db = 0.190709
    hit = 0.187974

    h (17)
    db = = 0.206312
    hit = 0.189536

    Here the dealer is somehow penalized for the “greed” of hitting soft seventeen, with the player increasing the expectations of both actions.

    When resplitting is not allowed, Double A-A vs 5 (if allowed) if:
    (s17) decks <= 2
    (h17) decks <= 2
    otherwise hit

    Agree. Very close but correct.

    For 2 decks and s (17):

    db =0.170637
    hit = 0,169241

    hit A-A vs 4 if resplit is not allowed, do not double

    Again, for 6 decks and s (17):

    db = 0.071156
    hit = 0.129004

    Here doubling looks but foolish (with BS only).

    My two cents.

    Zenfighter

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