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Thread: True Count Conversion Help

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    True Count Conversion Help

    So I'm using Hi Lo (Old Complete), flooring for TC division, rounding for deck est, half deck TC resolution on cvbj. I'm getting some errors I'm confused about.


    (10 cards played) 4 decks left, -2 running count= -1TC. How does this math work?


    Some other examples: 4 decks left, -3 running count = -1TC
    3.5 decks left, -2 running count= -1TC
    3.5 decks left, -6 running count= -2TC


    Thx all

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    Anything below 0 and in between -1 gives you TC -1. Try using truncation for TC division if you don't like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by name banned View Post
    Anything below 0 and in between -1 gives you TC -1. Try using truncation for TC division if you don't like that.
    But in the first example,(10 cards played) 4 decks left, -2 running count= -1TC for instance, 4 doesn't go into 2. So wouldn't that make the count zero and not below xero?

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    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    -2/4=-.5 assuming full decks division.

    Depending on your settings you will get 0 or -1. Truncation will give you 0. Flooring will give you -1.

    If you get an error in the CVBJ game, you can hit TC Calculator and try a bunch of different option settings.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    -2/4=-.5 assuming full decks division.
    I see. There's the problem. I can get there on a calculator but not in my head. Simple division I understand easily in my head, but the positive negative thing is confusing (for me). Is there a trick to it or am I better off truncating? I wanted to floor as that seems to be the preferred method.

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    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    If using truncate results in fewer errors, use truncate.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Senior Member dalmatian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roliin View Post
    So I'm using Hi Lo (Old Complete), flooring for TC division, rounding for deck est, half deck TC resolution on cvbj. I'm getting some errors I'm confused about.


    (10 cards played) 4 decks left, -2 running count= -1TC. How does this math work?


    Some other examples: 4 decks left, -3 running count = -1TC
    3.5 decks left, -2 running count= -1TC
    3.5 decks left, -6 running count= -2TC


    Thx all
    Flooring method of true count conversion. EXAMPLE: 4.5 floors down to 4, and -4.5 floors down to -5.

    Truncating method of true count conversion. EXAMPLE: 4.5 truncates to 4, and -4.5 truncates to -4.

    The only difference between flooring and truncating (which is what you're thinking of) is in the negatives. Flooring makes it more negative than what it really is, and truncating makes it less negative that what it really is.

    The last method is rounding. EXAMPLE: 4.5 rounds to 5, and -4.5 rounds to -5.

    There is a chart in Norm's book comparing the 3 methods. Rounding is by far the worst method. Truncating and flooring are very similar in EV BUT Flooring is SLIGHTLY better.

    Personally I just truncate, espcially since i heavily wong and the negatives don't matter that much to me

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    What about deck estimation ??

    45 cards at the tray u assume them as a full deck or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatian View Post
    Flooring method of true count conversion. EXAMPLE: 4.5 floors down to 4, and -4.5 floors down to -5.

    Truncating method of true count conversion. EXAMPLE: 4.5 truncates to 4, and -4.5 truncates to -4.

    The only difference between flooring and truncating (which is what you're thinking of) is in the negatives. Flooring makes it more negative than what it really is, and truncating makes it less negative that what it really is.

    The last method is rounding. EXAMPLE: 4.5 rounds to 5, and -4.5 rounds to -5.

    There is a chart in Norm's book comparing the 3 methods. Rounding is by far the worst method. Truncating and flooring are very similar in EV BUT Flooring is SLIGHTLY better.

    Personally I just truncate, espcially since i heavily wong and the negatives don't matter that much to me
    The last method is rounding. EXAMPLE: 4.5 rounds to 5, and -4.5 rounds to -5.
    It seems to me that -4.5 rounds up to -4.

    The only difference between flooring and truncating (which is what you're thinking of) is in the negatives. Flooring makes it more negative than what it really is, and truncating makes it less negative that what it really is.
    The biggest difference is found in the double size of the TC zero. But this has a solution that in my opinion would position the truncation method equal to or above the flooring method. With flooring, many people make mistakes in negative counts, which does not happen with truncation.
    What is that solution? Simply split the zero TC into two bins: zero+ and zero-. This means that the indices whose value is zero would have to be recalculated and positioned where appropriate.
    Maybe one day I'll run a simulation comparing the flooring method against the new truncation method.

    There is a chart in Norm's book comparing the 3 methods. Rounding is by far the worst method.
    I'm not sure the rounding method is the worst of all. I think it's similar to the flooring method. The worst of all in my opinion
    is the truncation method because of what I explained above.

    Sincerely,
    Cac

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    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Agree. Rounding and flooring are little different. Truncation is a bit worse.

    Zero+ and zero- is an interesting thought. It would have to be compared to using RC for zero indices.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefan View Post
    What about deck estimation ??

    45 cards at the tray u assume them as a full deck or not?
    Different strokes for different folks.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    Different strokes for different folks.

    A math answer would be great

  13. #13
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    There is no one correct method. CV applications have three options. Look at Deck Estimate in the following from the Help:

    People use many methods of calculating the True Count. Carefully setting the options on this screen will kept CV from indicating errors incorrectly.

    True Count Resolution
    The remaining options are used only in card counting systems in which a running count is converted to a true count. The options vary the exactness of the division. Important: This is not the same as the True Count Divisor. The divisor is set in the strategy itself.
    > Full Deck - This option is only meaningful if your counting system true count conversion is in full decks. If it is in half decks and this option is set, the Half Deck option below will be used. The option means that you will estimate the remaining decks in terms of full decks and always divide by a whole number.
    > Half Deck - When set, the running count divisor will be the remaining decks (or half decks if specified by your system) to the nearest half deck. This requires a better estimate of the remaining decks.
    > Quarter Deck - This is quite difficult with many decks remaining. When set, you must estimate the remaining decks to the closest number of quarter decks.
    > Exact Calculation - The True Count is calculated to the card.

    Last Deck Resolution

    It is easier and more important to estimate the remaining decks when you are in the last deck of a shoe (when you are luck enough to find a casino that deals that far.) This option allows you to force a better estimate during the last deck.
    True Count Division
    > Round - After the True Count division, the result is rounded to the nearest integer.
    > Truncate - For positive numbers, round down and for negative numbers round up.
    > Floor - Always round down.
    > Stat Round - Round to nearest even number if exactly between two numbers.

    Deck Estimate
    > Round - Note: Nearly everyone should set this to Round. Assuming Full Deck Resolution, If this option is set, 0-25 cards removed is considered a full shoe and 26-77 cards is considered one deck removed. Half Deck and Quarter Deck resolutions are also rounded accordingly. This is the more typical method of counting.
    > Truncate - Assuming Full Deck Resolution, If this option is set, 0-51 cards removed is considered a full shoe and 52-103 cards is considered one deck removed.
    > 95th Percentile - Assuming Full Deck Resolution, If this option is set, 0-49 cards removed is considered a full shoe and 50-99 cards is considered one deck removed.

    Deck Estimate Accuracy
    If you estimate the deck depth slightly incorrectly, it can change your true count and change a playing decision. But, the error is very minor. This feature can be used to set the number of cards of inaccuracy allowed. If you are off by this many cards or fewer and it causes a misplay, you will receive a close call warning instead of an error. The hand will not be marked in the error hands since you probably know how to play the hand.

    Remaining Cards Calculation
    Different players estimate the remaining cards in different manners as follows:
    > Subtract Cards Dealt - In calculating the remaining cards subtract the total number of cards dealt from the total cards.
    > Subtract Cards Shown - With this option, only take into account the cards seen.
    > Subtract Cards in Tray - With this option, just look at the cards in the discard tray.

    True Count Options
    > TC Decimal places displayed - Most people round True Counts to an integer. If you would like to see a more exact TC in the pop-up stats, set the desired number of decimals here.
    > Use Running Count with Zero Index - When making plays like 16vTen with a zero index, many people use the Running Count instead of the True Count for greater ease and accuracy. Set this option if you would like CV to work this way.

    Custom True Count Calculation
    Instead of using the True Count resolution and division options at the right, you can create your own detailed custom calculation technique. This method allows you to define exactly how you will calculate the TC for any number of cards dealt. Click the button to set up a table and check the option to use the table.

    TC Calculation by Rounds
    This is a simplified method of TC calculation that uses the number of rounds dealt and the number of players to estimate the cards dealt instead of looking at the discard tray. This method is more commonly used in single deck and double deck. Click Set Custom to create your own table and turn on the option to use this table.
    Last edited by Norm; 07-31-2022 at 10:07 AM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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