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Thread: Surrender Question

  1. #11


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    Should always double check before posting. When your only choices are surrender or stand you surrender A,6 vs A for H17 games and for Spanish 21. Sorry for any confusion.

  2. #12


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    Better!

    Don

  3. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    Should always double check before posting. When your only choices are surrender or stand you surrender A,6 vs A for H17 games and for Spanish 21. Sorry for any confusion.
    Do we surrender A,6 vs A for Stand-17 games? You didn’t say this, so I guess no.

  4. #14


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    No we don't. Initially I had said that we do, which was incorrect.

  5. #15


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    No we don't. Initially I had said that we do, which was incorrect.
    I just thought about this again and got some new ideas. When counting card in hit-17 6-deck games, I surrender hard 17 vs A when TC<=+2 but stand when TC>+3. When counting card in stand-17 6-deck games, I do not have an index for the hand of hard 17 vs A.

    However, one more thing still bothers me. A few 2-deck hit-17 games offer the surrender option. So, what is the surrender index for the hand in this game? Thank you in advance!

  6. #16


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    Quote Originally Posted by aceside View Post
    I just thought about this again and got some new ideas. When counting card in hit-17 6-deck games, I surrender hard 17 vs A when TC<=+2 but stand when TC>+3. When counting card in stand-17 6-deck games, I do not have an index for the hand of hard 17 vs A.

    However, one more thing still bothers me. A few 2-deck hit-17 games offer the surrender option. So, what is the surrender index for the hand in this game? Thank you in advance!
    Some precision here:
    In H17 games, you should Surrender 17 vs A when TC<+2 and Stand when TC =>+2

    In S17 games, you should Surrender 17 vs A when TC<-4 and Stand when TC=>-4


    For the DD H17 LS games, you Surrender 17 vs A when TC<+1 and Stand when TC=>+1

    Note: For all these decisions, there's a point (very low TC) where you will start Hitting instead of Surrendering.

    In S17 shoes: if TC <= -10
    In H17 shoes: Can't tell but a lot less than -10
    In DD H17 games: if TC <= -16
    Last edited by G Man; 05-17-2022 at 06:18 AM.
    G Man

  7. #17


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    Quote Originally Posted by G Man View Post
    In S17 games, you should Surrender 17 vs A when TC<-4 and Stand when TC=>-4

    16
    I didn’t know this part. I always stood on this hand in this situation. Nice of you!

  8. #18


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    Quote Originally Posted by G Man View Post
    Some precision here:
    In H17 games, you should Surrender 17 vs A when TC<+2 and Stand when TC =>+2

    In S17 games, you should Surrender 17 vs A when TC<-4 and Stand when TC=>-4


    For the DD H17 LS games, you Surrender 17 vs A when TC<+1 and Stand when TC=>+1

    Note: For all these decisions, there's a point (very low TC) where you will start Hitting instead of Surrendering.

    In S17 shoes: if TC <= -10
    In H17 shoes: Can't tell but a lot less than -10
    In DD H17 games: if TC <= -16

    I agree.

    Sincerely,
    Cac

  9. #19


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    This is detailed data for a hand of T-7 vs. ace, 2 decks, h17, late surrender using combinatorial analysis using HiLo. It includes number of cards remaining before up card is dealt, running counts to surrender/not surrender, and a calculated reference to true count at the surrender points. It would be a bit more accurate to use number of cards remaining after up card is dealt. However my CA computes before up card so I can compute all up cards at once.

    Basically it shows for the most part to late surrender at a running count of <0 for most of the shoe and <-1 toward the end of shoe.

    Referencing true count, it shows to late surrender for an approximate range of TC >=-15 to <0 for the largest portion of the shoe.

    It also shows to late surrender for some extremely positive counts which are unlikely to be encountered.

    Code:
    T-7 v ace, 2 decks, h17, late surrender
    
    Cards
    (before
    up card)  RC                     TC ref
    
    102-100   r                      ----
    99        <0, >=1                <0, >=.53
    98        <1, >=2                <.54, >=1.07
    97        <2                     <1.08
    96-84     <1                     <.55 to <.63
    83        <0                     <0
    81        <0, >=19               <0, >=12.35
    80        <0, >=20               <0, >=13.16
    79        <0, >=21               <0, >=14.
    78-77     <0, >=22               <0, >=14.86 to 15.05
    76        <0, >=23               <0, >=15.95
    75-74     <0, >=24               <0, >=16.86 to 17.10
    73        <-30, >=-23, <0, >=25  <-21.67, >=-16.61 to <0, >=18.06
    72        >=-22, <0, >=25        >=-16.11 to <0, >=18.31
    71        >=-21, <0, >=26        >=-15.60 to <0, >=19.31
    70        >=-21, <0, >=27        >=-15.83 to <0, >=20.35
    69        >=-20, <0, >=27        >=-15.29 to <0, >=20.65
    68        >=-20, <0, >=28        >=-15.52 to <0, >=21.73
    67-66     >=-19, <0, >=28        (>=-14.97, >=-15.20) to <0, (>=22.06, >=22.40)
    65-64     >=-18, <0, >=29        (>=-14.63, >=-14.86) to <0, (>=23.56, >=23.94)
    63        >=-18, <0, >=30        >=15.10 to <0, >=25.16
    62-61     >=-17, <0, >=30        (>=-14.49, >=-14.73) to <0, (>=25.57, >=26.)
    60        >=-17, <0, >=31        >=-14.98 to <0, >=27.32
    59-58     >=-16, <0, >=31        (>=-14.34, >=-14.60) to <0, (>=27.79, >=28.28)
    57        >=-16, <0, >=32        >=-14.86 to <0, >=29.72
    56        >=-15, <0, >=32        >=-14,18 to <0, >=30.25
    55-53     >=-15, <0, >=33        (>=-14.44, >=-14.72, >=-15.)
                                          to <0, (>=31.78, >=32.28, >=33.)
    52        >=-14, <0, >=34        >=14.27 to <0, >=34,67
    51-50     >=-14, <0, >=35        (>=-14.56, >=-14.86) to <0, (>=36.40, >=37.14)
    49        >=-13, <0, >=38        >=-14.08 to <0, >=41.17
    48-46     >=-13, <0              (>=-14.38, >=-14.70, >=-15.02) to <0
    45-42     >=-12, <0              (>=-14.18, >=-14.51, >=-14.86, >=-15.22) to <0
    41-38     >=-11, <0              (>=-14.30, >=-14.67, >=-15.05, >=-15.46) to <0
    37-36     >=-10, <0              (>=-14.44, >=-14.86) to <0
    35-34     >=-10, <-1             (>=-15.29, >=-15.76) to (<-1.53, <-1.58)
    33-30     >=-9, <-1              (>=-14.63, >=-15.10, >=-15.60, >=-16.14)
                                          to (<-1.63, <-1.68, <-1.73, <-1.79)
    29-26     >=-8, <-1              (>=-14.85, >=-15.41, >=-16., >=-16.64)
                                          to (<-1.86, <-1.93, <-2., <-2.08)
    25-22     >=-7, <-1              (>=-15.17, >=-15.83, >=-16.55, >=-17.33)
                                          to (<-2.17, <-2.26, <-2.36, <-2.48)
    21-17     >=-6, <-1              (>=-15.60, >=-16.42, >=-17.33, >=-18.35, >=-19.5)
                                          to (<-2.6, <-2.74, <-2.89, <-3.06, <-3.25)
    16-12     >=-5, <-1              (>=-17.33, >=-18.57, >=-20., >=-21.67, >=-23.64)
                                          to (<-3.47, <-3.71, <-4., <-4.33, <-4.73)
    11-9      >=-4, <0               (>=-20.80, >=-23.11, >=-26.) to <0
    8-7       >=-4, <1               (>=-29.71, >=-34.67) to (<7.43, <8.67)
    k_c

  10. #20


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    Quote Originally Posted by k_c View Post
    This is detailed data for a hand of T-7 vs. ace, 2 decks, h17, late surrender using combinatorial analysis using HiLo. It includes number of cards remaining before up card is dealt, running counts to surrender/not surrender, and a calculated reference

    k_c
    Wonderful work! I will use RC for this hand decision based on your results, but I found a tiny typo in this part of your code. Shouldn’t the TC be >=-14.27 to <0 ? Can you confirm? See below

    “52 >=-14, <0, >=34 >=14.27 to <0, >=34,67”

    It seems to me a minus sign is missing in front of the number 14.27.
    Last edited by aceside; 05-18-2022 at 07:06 AM.

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