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Thread: Indexes

  1. #14


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    Update:
    I ran the index generation's again (not all but a few) with 'exact card' resolution and suddenly they're matching the PBJ tables.

    Again I haven't tried every single one yet but so far so good.

    The only one that still doesn't is 16 VS dealer 10 but we have discussed this in a previous thread.

  2. #15
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Not surprising. Of course, that's not how players count.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  3. #16


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    What you don't divide by the exact card? I use half a card divisor, twice as accurate!
    *insert sarcasm emoji here.

    It is however interesting to see where the discrepancies come from though. It seems a lot of people take the indices in that book and similar as concrete rules, so to see that a more practical approach actually yields different results is somewhat interesting.

  4. #17
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    My focus has always been on pragmatism, as opposed to theorism -- numbers that aren’t actually used by humans in a casino. Hence the name Casino Vérité, a play on Cinema Vérité, a century old style designed to portray reality.
    Last edited by Norm; 03-09-2022 at 05:40 PM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  5. #18


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    Norm, is it possible to compute indexes using pure CA, i know it might not be computationally tractable but theoretically speaking?
    Chance favors the prepared mind

  6. #19


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    Quote Originally Posted by iCountNTrack View Post
    Norm, is it possible to compute indexes using pure CA, i know it might not be computationally tractable but theoretically speaking?
    Yes, of course. Theoretically, there is a point where the difference between the expected value of two particular plays (eg hit vs stand, double vs hit, etc.) becomes zero. That point is what is known as the index, that is, the point from which the expected value of one play begins to exceed the expected value of the other. Obviously we would be talking about an exact TC per deck (RC/cards_remaining * 52) without any kind of flooring or rounding or estimation of remaining decks.

    Sincerely,
    Cac

  7. #20


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    Quote Originally Posted by Duc939 View Post
    Update:
    I ran the index generation's again (not all but a few) with 'exact card' resolution and suddenly they're matching the PBJ tables.

    Again I haven't tried every single one yet but so far so good.

    The only one that still doesn't is 16 VS dealer 10 but we have discussed this in a previous thread.

    Great!

    Sincerely,
    Cac

  8. #21


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cacarulo View Post
    Yes, of course. Theoretically, there is a point where the difference between the expected value of two particular plays (eg hit vs stand, double vs hit, etc.) becomes zero. That point is what is known as the index, that is, the point from which the expected value of one play begins to exceed the expected value of the other. Obviously we would be talking about an exact TC per deck (RC/cards_remaining * 52) without any kind of flooring or rounding or estimation of remaining decks.

    Sincerely,
    Cac
    Thanks Cac, i was more asking about the viability of the method, like how accurate would the indices be. I think Norm mentioned once he only used CA when the sim would get stuck at a local minima but these are memories from like 114 years ago
    Chance favors the prepared mind

  9. #22


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    Quote Originally Posted by iCountNTrack View Post
    Thanks Cac, i was more asking about the viability of the method, like how accurate would the indices be. I think Norm mentioned once he only used CA when the sim would get stuck at a local minima but these are memories from like 114 years ago
    In general the indices are quite accurate and are generated in a trice depending on the method used. They can be derived algebraically using EoRs (such as those in BJA3), as well as by a direct combinatorial analysis.
    Many years ago I made a comparison between what is obtained by simulation and what is obtained by CA. I even remember having generated by simulation indices with a decimal precision of one digit.
    The surprising thing about that study is that there was practically no difference between what was derived algebraically and what was derived by simulation.
    If I find the comparison I will post it on this forum.

    Sincerely,
    Cac

  10. #23
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Interesting. Long ago, I compared EOR based algebraic indices with sim generated and found large differences.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  11. #24


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  12. #25


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    Just two cents

    Hi all

    A quite old controversy if I must recall my fancy memory about precise one-decimal indices,
    and their possible gains over floored ones. Nada, rien de rien. Nothing to write home.

    Just two cents:


    T,6 v T-----0.643179-----0.6


    9,7 v T-----0.017786-----0.0


    8,8 v T-----0.027440-----0.0


    T,5 v T -----3.74246-----3.7


    9,6 v T----- 3.75459-----3.8


    8,7 v T -----3.75484-----3.8


    Your way to riches? Too late for the dream.

    Best regards,

    Zenfighter

  13. #26


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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenfighter View Post
    Hi all

    A quite old controversy if I must recall my fancy memory about precise one-decimal indices,
    and their possible gains over floored ones. Nada, rien de rien. Nothing to write home.

    Just two cents:


    T,6 v T-----0.643179-----0.6


    9,7 v T-----0.017786-----0.0


    8,8 v T-----0.027440-----0.0


    T,5 v T -----3.74246-----3.7


    9,6 v T----- 3.75459-----3.8


    8,7 v T -----3.75484-----3.8


    Your way to riches? Too late for the dream.

    Best regards,

    Zenfighter
    Yes, your one-decimal indices are correct.
    I got pretty much the same thing:

    16vT: 0.0 (0,04) Generic
    T6vT: 0.7 (0.66)
    97vT: 0.0 (0,02)
    88vT: 0.0 (0,03)

    15vT: 3.9 (3,87) Generic
    T5vT: 3.8 (3,79)
    96vT: 3.8 (3,80)
    87vT: 3.8 (3,80)

    Sincerely,
    Cac

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