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Thread: Black Chip APs

  1. #1


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    Black Chip APs

    If your unit bet is $100, do you play $100 tables? Or do you look for lower limit tables so you can reduce your bet in negative counts?

  2. #2


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    If the rules are better, yes. Wong out in negative counts.

  3. #3


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    Depends on table conditions. If there are fewer people, usually then yes.
    Usually greenchip is enough to ward off people.

  4. #4


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    So I guess my question is really, what is the value of reducing a bet in negative counts?. If I spread 1 to 10, and my unit bet is $100, if I go down to a $10 bet, it looks like my spread is 1 to 100, since my max bet is $1000. It is great for EV, but looks terrible to Surveillance. What is the trade off?

  5. #5


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    So I guess my question is really, what is the value of reducing a bet in negative counts?. If I spread 1 to 10, and my unit bet is $100, if I go down to a $10 bet, it looks like my spread is 1 to 100, since my max bet is $1000. It is great for EV, but looks terrible to Surveillance. What is the trade off?

  6. #6


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    We heard you the first time

    It's a lot worse going down to $10 than just answering your phone or taking a bathroom break. Also, If you're at a $10 table, you'll attract more attention betting black than if you're at a $25 or higher table.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Ed View Post
    If your unit bet is $100, do you play $100 tables? Or do you look for lower limit tables so you can reduce your bet in negative counts?
    If you are ever to reduce your bet in neg counts, then your unit isn't $100, it's whatever you will reduce to, maybe $50... $25 ?

    And I will add...
    I've seen a few posts from you in the last weeks/month. Looks to me like you are starting in this field and I will advise you not to start this adventure with $100 units. You risk a lot in the learning process. Start maybe with $25 unit and learn the basics of advantage play "inside" the casino which is very different than on a kitchen table or in books.

    This being said, like most people, I doubt you will listen to me.
    Last edited by G Man; 01-12-2022 at 06:45 AM.
    G Man

  8. #8


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    At a $10 table, maximizing SCORE is achieved by using table min in all non EV producing hands. But, 10-200 creates a spread problem. Off the top with $20-$25 to table max $200 is a more acceptable spread to the house. Dropping to table min of $10-15 at let’s say -2, effectively increases your 1-8 spread to 1-20 and at the same time, reduces number of hands subject to spread exposure. Effect on SCORE is marginal - sim it.

  9. #9


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    Thank you very much. It’s not a problem I actually have, since my bankroll only supports a $15 table - just optimistically thinking about the future.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    At a $10 table, maximizing SCORE is achieved by using table min in all non EV producing hands. But, 10-200 creates a spread problem. Off the top with $20-$25 to table max $200 is a more acceptable spread to the house. Dropping to table min of $10-15 at let’s say -2, effectively increases your 1-8 spread to 1-20 and at the same time, reduces number of hands subject to spread exposure. Effect on SCORE is marginal - sim it.
    Another gambit that can be thrown in. Side games are mostly if not all, countable in some fashion. Some create positive EV situations in either extreme positive or negative counts. One particular side game becomes profitable at negative counts. As an example, take your off the top $15-$25 bet, reduce to min $10 and throw $5 on the side bet.

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Ed View Post
    So I guess my question is really, what is the value of reducing a bet in negative counts?.
    You spoke about using a 1 to 10 spread in the process, which on the surface based on the rules of the game a play all approach may not be worth the effort. The value of reducing a bet is huge. Lowering your bet beyond your basic unit bet lowers risk. For example, every time you are playing negative EV hands are dollars lost long term. The more and more of those minus EV hands that you play the harder it becomes to overcome. Require making larger and larger bets "larger bankroll needed" with more risk to overcome, sort of like riding a seesaw. Using larger spreads results in over exposure and a better chance to get noticed. The lowering your $100 unit to $10 and making $1000 dollar bets in the next shoe is not even funny or worth discussion.

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    You spoke about using a 1 to 10 spread in the process, which on the surface based on the rules of the game a play all approach may not be worth the effort. The value of reducing a bet is huge. Lowering your bet beyond your basic unit bet lowers risk. For example, every time you are playing negative EV hands are dollars lost long term. The more and more of those minus EV hands that you play the harder it becomes to overcome. Require making larger and larger bets "larger bankroll needed" with more risk to overcome, sort of like riding a seesaw. Using larger spreads results in over exposure and a better chance to get noticed. The lowering your $100 unit to $10 and making $1000 dollar bets in the next shoe is not even funny or worth discussion.
    As I’ve often said - the spread is your friend. Where half true counts are handy - “non optimal” chip raises in plus 2-3 category establish the pattern so when you hit your max bet tempered by house tolerance - and on a streak where you’ve hit your max bet, continue the chip up style - the pattern has already been established.

    I just finished such a gambit at a min $50 table with max of $500, chipping up to $700. Nice when it happens.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Tarzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Ed View Post
    So I guess my question is really, what is the value of reducing a bet in negative counts?. If I spread 1 to 10, and my unit bet is $100, if I go down to a $10 bet, it looks like my spread is 1 to 100, since my max bet is $1000. It is great for EV, but looks terrible to Surveillance. What is the trade off?
    Have you ever heard that saying, "There's no such thing as a stupid question"? Well, that might not be true when it comes to blackjack. There are so many things wrong here that don't concur with real life. First off, why does a "black chip AP" play the higher stakes table instead of just playing the $10 table? The rules. I didn't see any mention of that in the thread thus far. If the rules over on the $10 min. table are 8D, H17 out of an autoshuffler on a packed table, but over there on the higher stakes table the rules are hand-shuffled 6D, S17, LS, DAS, this might make a difference. In fairytale princess land blackjack, perhaps you could play the $10 min. table with good rules and be able to toss max bets ($500 on a $10 min. table?) out there and nobody's going to notice?Hahaha But hey, its fairytale princess land blackjack, so why not drop your bet to $1 in negative counts and slap down $1000 bets when you hit TC+5 or more? This would work even with the shitty rules!

    When playing a lower stakes table, even a $25 min. game, they yell out "black action" on every single black chip put out there, (something they don't do at the casino offering fairytale princess land blackjack). The only way you're not going to be in the spotlight with that is if a group of Asians are two tables down from you in the same pit are slapping down stacks of purple like it's going out of style, averting all the attention of the pit to them. There are things you can do to make the spread less noticeable that apply across the board regardless of table stakes, perhaps with only some slight variations, but one of the primary reasons for having a larger bankroll and playing higher stakes is better rules and conditions. It's evolved into that over the years, from back when all the rules were the same all the way around, way back, in the long ago, in the before time, prior to one day me saying, "WTF is this H17 stuff?!!" You see, once upon a time, there was actually such a thing fairytale princess land blackjack (although we didn't call it that at the time), and if you weren't too greedy it was an easy haul. In any case, should you encounter any fairytale princess land blackjack anywhere, don't hesitate to let me know immediately! Sometimes a thread throws a hypothetical variable that doesn't exist or apply, makes no real sense, or isn't very applicable to increasing actual understanding and proficiency.





    Last edited by Tarzan; 01-12-2022 at 11:52 AM.

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