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Thread: Index to surrender 8,8 v T?

  1. #27


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Im out of town. Can someone look up Wongs Prof BJ Hi Lo tables starting at about page 250 or Halves tables starting about page 275. H17 DAS game with LSR or ESI0, tend to split 88 v 10 at about -3 or worse (lousier the count the better) and I think I’ve done pretty well with it.

    Edit
    Make that Surrender tables I think around page 92 or so - should show split if 8m not mistaken.
    Wong gives -2 (Hi-Lo) for 88 vs 10 BUT it's for ES

    Norm, correct me if wrong. Did you ever came up with -7 for the same hand ?
    G Man

  2. #28


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    Quote Originally Posted by G Man View Post
    Wong gives -2 (Hi-Lo) for 88 vs 10 BUT it's for ES

    Norm, correct me if wrong. Did you ever came up with -7 for the same hand ?
    Wong truncated, so -3 floored. ES10 is my standard game.
    Really wonder why Wong did this when everyone else floored. Also not quite sure, but I think he confused the issue further by flooring in one version, truncating in another. A bit hazy on this point.

  3. #29


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    I think Wong went back and forth with flooring and truncating. If I remember well, Don warned him not to do so (maybe Don can give the exact story) but he did it anyway.
    G Man

  4. #30


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    Quote Originally Posted by G Man View Post
    I think Wong went back and forth with flooring and truncating. If I remember well, Don warned him not to do so (maybe Don can give the exact story) but he did it anyway.
    Yes, I urged him vociferously NOT to change his methodology, as it would a) be out of step with the conventional wisdom, and b) would confuse the hell out of everyone. Sadly, he didn't listen. So now, all of his negative indices are one higher than the more prevalent floored ones.

    Everyone should also realize that, for his pairs surrender values, whether LS or ES, Wong never specified whether they were for DAS or NDAS, and that obviously also makes a difference.

    Don

  5. #31
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G Man View Post
    Wong gives -2 (Hi-Lo) for 88 vs 10 BUT it's for ES

    Norm, correct me if wrong. Did you ever came up with -7 for the same hand ?
    I have simmed quintillions of hands. No idea how to answer what I might have come up with once in decades on some ill defined situation.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  6. #32


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    FWIW, I use -6 for RPC, and those indices are always similar to Hi-Lo.

    Don

  7. #33


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    FWIW, I use -6 for RPC, and those indices are always similar to Hi-Lo.

    Don
    What accounts for such a large difference from Wong? Is there such a thing as an RA negative index? No question in my mind the crappier the count, the more successful the play.

  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Everyone should also realize that, for his pairs surrender values, whether LS or ES, Wong never specified whether they were for DAS or NDAS, and that obviously also makes a difference.

    Don
    This is sharp! I really hope you can publish a new book focusing on 2-deck blackjack games.

  9. #35


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    What accounts for such a large difference from Wong? Is there such a thing as an RA negative index? No question in my mind the crappier the count, the more successful the play.
    We suspect that Wong index was for the NDAS games.
    G Man

  10. #36
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Something I thought I'd point out just for perfectionists and theoreticians:

    As I said, to generate an EV max index, you need to know the dependent indices first. That is, indices with the same dealer upcard for decisions that will be made after the desired decision. This is why CVData generates indices in a certain order. This is important.

    However, RA indices actually depend on all of the other indices, not just ones with the same dealer upcard. That is, theoretically you need to know all of the RA indices before you can generate any of them. That's why CVData has an option to generate RA indices and then automatically regenerate them using the just generated indices.

    Having said that, I don't suggest anyone use this option as it's overkill. The dependent indices can have a major difference. The effect of the other indices is minor. In my tests ages ago, I rarely saw a difference in results.

    Hmm, gives me a new idea on how to set up a more foolproof index run.
    Last edited by Norm; 01-11-2022 at 12:01 PM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  11. #37


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Everyone should also realize that, for his pairs surrender values, whether LS or ES, Wong never specified whether they were for DAS or NDAS, and that obviously also makes a difference.
    You're just saying this to get aceside in a tizzy, thinking this is why he loses

  12. #38


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    I do not think that the late surrender decision for 8-8 vs. T using HiLo is necessarily best determined by true count.
    I just cherry picked LS versus T from my data. Full set of data in a text file is here: http://www.bjstrat.net/Downloads/HiLo_88.zip

    Code:
    Count tags {1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,0,0,0,1}
    2 decks, s17, NDAS, 8-8 vs. T late surrender
    
    Cards Remaining          RC                TC ref
    (before up card)
    ___________________________________________________________
    
    102-98                   Do not surr       --
    98-77                    >= +3             +1.61 to +2.03
    76-9                     >= +2             +1.39 to +13.00
    <9                       No subsets or not enough cards
    k_c

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    You're just saying this to get aceside in a tizzy, thinking this is why he loses
    With help from forum members in the last several weeks, I have recovered all my past losses on 2-deck games. Just let you know. This game is a monkey game, meaning I have to constantly vary my bet amount and hand number.

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